Paperstreet

Supposedly Adam and Eve would still be in the Garden of Eden today, if it was not for them eating the fruit off the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Supposedly, they would have been there 10 trillion years from now. With an eternity to do the one thing that is not allowed, anything, except a perfect being, or "God" would do that one thing. Creating a being that does not have the knowledge of good and evil, is far from perfect. Only God would be able to overcome the persuasion of the serpent (a metaphor for satan). God knew he wasn't creating perfect beings, because a perfect being has the knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore it is unjustified to punish all of mankind for eternity, just because God gave humans a test only a perfect being could pass.

Wildheart

IMO it's unjustified to punish all of mankind for eternity for anything, not just a failed test.

Arikay

Well remember, that since god knows all, He knew they would fail the test before he gave it to them. But he still chose to punish them when they failed (as he knew they would).

If I have an untrained puppy that then runs off and gets hit by a car. Who is to blame, the puppy for not knowing better, or me?

Shouldnt god have been punished for letting his Pets do the wrong thing?

keyser_soze

Yes, but I say we let him off easy...say...50 lashes. That seems a tad more fair than eternity in a fiery torment!

Volker.Doormann

This in Genesis stated commandment is a wrong encoded true symbol, to choose for free two different realms of nature. There is the freedom for all of us to act wrong or right. This means, that not god must be for sure responsible for the perceiving injustice of the individual. There is no remembering of actions prior to our birth. There are ethical/nonethical actions of individuals, which are not paid back in this lifetime. Without this knowledge in this life about the unpaid actions in a prior life, nobody can say for sure, that perceived injustice is injustice. There never is a punish in the order of nature. There are only errors in acting of the individual and reactions because of the order of nature to direct the individual on a more errorless path.

A Lamentation about the imperfection in consciousness does not change the truth about the reality of our imperfection. Our secret knowledge as a re_member_ing of a state of justice in perfection as reference is a hint to avoid wrong actions of injustice to other individuals. But because each individual is free to act wrong, no one must follow this path; he is only still the creator of a cause that effects as perceived injustice.

There never is created something. There only was ever an order of nature in that two realms of nature. We do learn the order of physical nature, but we reject the order of the spiritual order of nature. Justice is not a dimension of physics. I think it is wise to respect the laws of the spiritual nature as well as the laws of the physical nature.

Volker

Paperstreet

We were never perfect, so how can we remember being perfect? Why didn't our creator just make us perfect, and God-like to start with? Because that would be to much work? Or did he want servants? If God doesnt think its an injustice, thats nice for him because, how is he affected by "his wrath". Only we are. So why can't we set our own rules about injustice? Oh thats right... We Do.

The Garden of Eden test was like giving a quantam physics test to a newborn baby. Impossible to pass.

Volker.Doormann

We were perfect, therefore we can remember.
We were perfect, but now we are not. As I have argued, this is created by our self without any god. There is no creator. We are god, but we don't know.
Yes. Please don't bother god. There is no limitation to realize perfection. But it needs knowledge about that, what is perfection.
It is very easy to pass that test. Knowledge. Spiritual knowledge. Spiritual knowledge can distinguish between social slavery claims and god realization. Why do you have the remembering of justice? To sing lamentations? Where do you have this remembering of justice? We have the freedom to be a master or a slave. Poor people who let oneself impress from a holy book written by imperfect people to be a slave of (eternal) imperfection.

Volker

Paperstreet

When were we perfect? When we were merely souls, not living in the actual world? Or when we were in the Garden of Eden?

Volker.Doormann

If we live in a physical world, then all processes are dynamic processes in time. We are not the same body in ten years or ten years ago. Exact, we are not our body, we have a body. We got this physical biological body by birth and we leave it if we die. We have a brain, a physical memory and an awareness from electrical signal from the physical body. But there is also a consciousness about nonphysical 'things'. Justice, harmony, logic, math, ethic are not physical and never could be find as physical in a human body. While some things change with time, there are things, which are not depending on time. Math, logic or the order of nature does not depends on time. This means, that they are of an eternal quality. Now it depends on the grade of the individual consciousness, whether one is aware not only about his physical/biological/emotional consciousness, but also about his spiritual consciousness, which is also of an eternal quality called soul, which only is able to recognize spiritual qualities. There are no physical references to measure spiritual qualities ever. When we were perfect? Well, this is a question, that ask for a time. But because a perfection is not possible in a dynamic (time) physical world, this means, that we not were perfect ever in this word, but as a soul in a spiritual world, were no time exist, but logic and harmony. It (perfection) is a state of consciousness, were is no time.
We merely living in this garbage can called mortal world in a mortal physical/biological body and we are immortal souls ever. The only point of relevance is the grade of consciousness about both, the continuos changing (composition of the) body in time, and about that, what we are real. Are we atoms? What is the kernel of our self? There is no time needed to recognize this.
It is a great mistaken, that the Garden of Eden has any spiritual properties or has any time line. In the story in Genesis 2/3 the topic is life, physical life. 'The way, physical life comes into being' was called 'Genesis' by the Greeks. There is a 'God' in Genesis called YHWH. This means I (Y) am the life (HWH). This god YHWH is one of more gods (Hebrew: Elohim). Elohim is plural of god (El) = one god. Like 'israeEl' is the wrestling with god. The garden of Eden is called 'gan eden' in Hebrew and means literally 'Garden of Joy'. This is a secret symbol for the female womb, as it is to be recognized because the symbol 'tree of life' as the male counterpart is placed 'in midst of the garden of joy. All this is physical and in no means of any ethical order, spiritual quality, or religious (punish) meaning. doormann.org/the0.htm. From this comes the free choose to live a physical/biological life or to be aware about the truth of this system 'eating' knowledge, with the result, that the meaning of that phyiscal/biological/social/emotional life is dying. There is only knowledge then, which has a meaning to the immortal soul.

Volker

Volker.Doormann

Hi Paperstreet,

no more questions? If you are curious about my thougts, doesn't matter, you are not alone. Some things are really strange, but nevertheless full in the range of reason. In full respect to your person I would like to give you some demonstration, that there is really an order to discover also in spiritual 'things'. I have seen, that you wrote this in an other thread:
I can tell you, that my father is lost in World War II, as I was not two years old, and I have missed him for long. There were only a mother and an older sister. I can understand your feeling. Now it's interesting, that some symbols on the sky while my birth and your birth are the same symbols. You can printout an astrological chart for free for you from www.astro.com/cgi/aq.cgi?lang=e to see the ecliptic positons of Mercury, Sun, Saturn and Uranus on your day of birth. Astrologers can decode these signs of time as it was known by Jesus (Matt: "The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. And in the morning, [It will be] foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times ? ). Looking to the signs of the time of your birth one can see, that four planets are in Conjunction: Sun, Mercury, Saturn and Uranus. There is a Conjunction of Sun and Saturn - and - of Mercury and Uranus (dito in my chart: 1943 June 12th). The interpretations of these astrological aspects one can read from a site in German doormann.org/planethz.htm on which I have published my astrological interpretations written 8 years ago for an astrological software program. Please search for the following text on that page in German:
31 SO KO SA: Dein Vater verhinderte Deine Entwicklung. Du bist undurchschaubar. Mit Deiner Undurchschaubarkeit, versuchst Du, Deine Seele vor Verletzungen zu schützen. Du hast tiefe Gedanken und möchtest andere geistig führen - nicht beherrschen.
157 ME KO SA: Dein Vater hat Dich in Deiner Kindheit eingeengt. Dadurch ist Dein Redefluss beeinträchtigt. Dafür bist Du im Denken exakter, gewissenhafter, logischer und wissenschaftlicher. Mathematik und Wissenschaft sind Dein Zuhause.
163 ME KO UR: Du kannst schnell denken, hast blitzartige Eingebungen, bist kreativ. Deine revolutionären Äußerungen erschrecken die Gesellschaft. Du kannst in kaum erschlossenen Wissenschaftsgebieten forschen.
7 SO KO UR: Dein Leben verläuft in exzentrischen Bahnen, Du suchst nach dem richtigen Weg!. My bad English translation: Your father prevented your development. You are obscure. With your obscureness, you try, to protect your soul against injuries. You have deep thoughts and would like others mentally to lead - not to control. Your father restricted you in your childhood. Thus your speech floating is impaired. But you are in thinking more accurately, more conscientiously, more logically and more scientific. Mathematics and science are yours at home. You can think fast, have lightning-like intuitions, are creative. Your revolutionary thoughts frightens the society. You can research in hardly opened areas of science Your life runs in eccentric courses, you looks for the correct way!. These interpretations are only four of some 50 symbols in one chart out of about 1000 total are known to me as be valid, which can be interpreted, to learn the stamp one gets while birth form prior lifes. I can tell you, that there is a time, you will understand, that your father is stamped also, but different to you, and that it is not only a lack to have not really a father. Maybe you can sometime be more a 'father' to your father, than he ever could. If you would like to know more about your chart, you can mail me. You have a great chart. Thank you for your patience.

Best

Volker