Freethought & Rationalism Archive

babelfish · 01-23-2002, 08:01 AM

It's sanctity of life week. So naturally all I've been hearing on my favorite xian radio stations is how many millions of little babies have been killed in this country in the last 29 years.

This means that there are millions of women in the United States who should be in jail right now. But the xians don't ever talk about that. Do they think that all these women are being tricked into the abortion clinics by unscrupulous abortion-mongers who just want to make a quick buck?

[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: babelfish ]

Henrietta · 01-23-2002, 08:17 AM

I recall reading something indicating that this is changing. In the past the woman was made out to be a victim too stupid to decide for herself. Now I believe some anti-abortionists are saying that they need to be presenting the woman as murderers too. If I run across something supporting this change in attitude I'll let you know.

brighid · 01-23-2002, 08:33 AM

I think they are neither! I believe it is very rare that a woman or even a teenage girl is not aware of the ramifications of pregnancy and abortion, and that these women have not thoroughly thought through their options. They are neither fools, nor murderers. They were fools to believe that the man or boy they slept with would generally be happy or supportive of a pregnancy, and even more foolish to place their life and future in the hands of someone on worthy of that honor. Birth control is a lovely thing and I have been on both sides of the crisis pregnancy situation. Unfortunately, pregnancy is a dangerous thing, even when successful. My younger sister is in a position right now where she is pregnant with her 5th child (she has had two miscarriages) and she was set to go into in two weeks to get her tubes tied. Her last pregnancy was very, very difficult for her and her doctor recommended she not get pregnant again. She has four young children and will be required to be on complete bed rest from here. Try doing that with a baby, a toddler and two school aged boys. There is no family in the area as we are all scattered about and therefore her support system in the immediate sense in non-existent. The problem is the baby is not growing at a normal rate and she has to be monitored regularly. The baby posses a direct threat to her life and if things continue to spiral downward they will have to perform a surgical abortion. She will have to choose an abortion, just as a woman choosing an abortion for other personal reasons.

There is this horribly misguided notion that these women are somehow monsters, or perhaps selfish bitches who don’t want to be burdened with a baby. That is absolutely wrong. Perhaps there are cases of callous women who use abortion as a form of birth control, but those cases are few and far between.

If abortion was criminalized, as it once was, this would be a horrible state of affairs. And as it happened before, the police would be checking every miscarriage to see if a woman somehow caused it. Almost every woman I know that has children, has at one point had a miscarriage. A very close friend of mine has had three in a row. Every woman of child-bearing age would be suspect. Imagine, the police coming into your home to arrest your wife, your daughter, or your mother because a miscarriage was reported and she had to go down to the station and be interrogated to see what REALLY caused the miscarriage. The horror – for goodness sakes, let’s go digress and return to a time when women had no control over their bodies, their destinies and were criminals just for having a uterus.

Brighid

babelfish · 01-23-2002, 09:04 AM

Thanks for the great post, Brighid.

Quote:

There is this horribly misguided notion that these women are somehow monsters, or perhaps selfish bitches who don’t want to be burdened with a baby. That is absolutely wrong. Perhaps there are cases of callous women who use abortion as a form of birth control, but those cases are few and far between.

I keep hearing xians characterizing women seeking abortions as career women for whom a child would be an "inconvenience." This really makes my blood boil. A child is a HUGE undertaking. Having a baby is a MAJOR, LIFE-CHANGING act (whether or not you give it up for adoption), not a life-style choice. That is precisely why women have abortions. Conservatives of every persuasion insist on devaluing the impact of having a child upon the life of a woman.

ChurchOfBruce · 01-23-2002, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by brighid:
 My younger sister is in a position right now where she is pregnant with her 5th child (she has had two miscarriages) and she was set to go into in two weeks to get her tubes tied. Her last pregnancy was very, very difficult for her and her doctor recommended she not get pregnant again. She has four young children and will be required to be on complete bed rest from here. Try doing that with a baby, a toddler and two school aged boys.

If my wife were to get pregnant again, it would probably be a similar situation. Her two pregnancies were horrific (both kids are just fine now) and the docs have strongly advised us to stop at two.

And, yes, I have an appointment to get the ol' snip-snip, but not for another month. So we use copious birth control, but it could still fail.

If she were to get pregnant again, she would also be on bedrest from the get-go. Since she is the prime breadwinner in this family--I'm the stay at home Dad--this would not only be a serious medical risk, it would be financial disaster.

--Frank

bonduca · 01-23-2002, 12:13 PM

Women who get abortions are women who wish to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, for reasons personal and compelling to them.

Are those who can't deal with that idiots, or just misguided fools?

Edited to add kudos to Brighid.

[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]

cheetah · 01-23-2002, 12:21 PM

Sometimes I lurk on unitedconservatives.com to see what the crazies are up to (some are normal, but some really are crazy, I think). And they had an abortion thread where this one guy just went off calling women sluts, bitches, etc.! I think it really showed how his feelings come more from misogyny and a desire to oppress women and their freedom for sex than to "save babies" I really thought his misogyny was disgusting! And of course, no one says anything about the guy that caused the pregnancy being a slut! As if the womna was able to conceive on her own or something! Ugh!

echidna · 01-23-2002, 01:18 PM

Brigid, the flipside is that there are also many single women who do not practise safe sex who do become pregnant. (This of course leaves out the responsibility of their partner.)

For instance I believe that one of the major sources of teenage pregnancy is Catholic girls schools, which I would argue supports the "misguided" part of the question.

Outside of stable relationships, safe sex is still far from universal.

Ms. Siv · 01-23-2002, 06:14 PM

I am pro-choice but I also would advocate more responsibility (from both the man and the woman).

Life is NOT sacred in our world today . Sanctifying it absolutely may actually outlaw a whole lot of things besides abortion

As Sagan said :

" The phrase "right to life" is an excellent example of a "buzz word", designed to inflame rather than illuminate. There is no right to life in any society on Earth today, nor has there been at any former time (with a few rare exceptions, such as among the Jains of India).
We raise farm animals for slaughter ; destroy forests ; pollute rivers and lakes until no fish can live there ; hunt deer and elk for sport, lepords for their pelts, and whales for dog food ; entwine dolphins, gasping and writhing, in great tuna nets ; and club seal pups to death for "population management". All these animals and vegetables are as alive as we.
What is protected in many human societies, is not life, but human life. And even with this protection, we wage "modern" wars on civilian populations with a toll so terrible we are, most of us, afraid to consider it very deeply.
Often such mass murders are justified by racial or religious or nationalistic redefinitions of our opponents as less than human. "

- Sivakami.

[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: Sivakami S ]

babelfish · 01-24-2002, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Despite many claims to the contrary, life does not begin at conception: It is an unbroken chain that stretches back nearly to the origin of the Earth, 4.6 billion years ago. Nor does human life begin at conception: It is an unbroken chain dating back to the origin of our species, hundreds of thousands of years ago. Every human sperm and egg is, beyond the shadow of a doubt, alive. They are not human beings, of course. However, it could be argued that neither is a fertilized egg.

That's another quote from <a href="http://www.2think.org/abortion.shtml" target="_blank">this essay by Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan</a>

In my neighborhood there's a car with bumper sticker that says "As a former fetus, I object to abortion." I want a bumper sticker for my car that says "As a former ovum, I object to menstruation," or maybe "As a former sperm cell, I object to masturbation."

01-23-2002, 08:01 AM	#1
babelfish Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Augusta, Maine, USA Posts: 2,046	Are women who have abortions murderers or just misguided fools? It's sanctity of life week. So naturally all I've been hearing on my favorite xian radio stations is how many millions of little babies have been killed in this country in the last 29 years. This means that there are millions of women in the United States who should be in jail right now. But the xians don't ever talk about that. Do they think that all these women are being tricked into the abortion clinics by unscrupulous abortion-mongers who just want to make a quick buck? [ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: babelfish ]</p>

01-23-2002, 12:13 PM	#6
bonduca Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: . Posts: 1,653	Women who get abortions are women who wish to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, for reasons personal and compelling to them. Are those who can't deal with that idiots, or just misguided fools? Edited to add kudos to Brighid. [ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]</p>

01-23-2002, 06:14 PM	#9
Ms. Siv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: India Posts: 2,340	I am pro-choice but I also would advocate more responsibility (from both the man and the woman). Life is NOT sacred in our world today . Sanctifying it absolutely may actually outlaw a whole lot of things besides abortion As Sagan said : " The phrase "right to life" is an excellent example of a "buzz word", designed to inflame rather than illuminate. There is no right to life in any society on Earth today, nor has there been at any former time (with a few rare exceptions, such as among the Jains of India). We raise farm animals for slaughter ; destroy forests ; pollute rivers and lakes until no fish can live there ; hunt deer and elk for sport, lepords for their pelts, and whales for dog food ; entwine dolphins, gasping and writhing, in great tuna nets ; and club seal pups to death for "population management". All these animals and vegetables are as alive as we. What is protected in many human societies, is not life, but human life. And even with this protection, we wage "modern" wars on civilian populations with a toll so terrible we are, most of us, afraid to consider it very deeply. Often such mass murders are justified by racial or religious or nationalistic redefinitions of our opponents as less than human. " - Sivakami. [ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: Sivakami S ]</p>

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

01-23-2002, 08:17 AM	#2
Henrietta Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: West USA Posts: 380	I recall reading something indicating that this is changing. In the past the woman was made out to be a victim too stupid to decide for herself. Now I believe some anti-abortionists are saying that they need to be presenting the woman as murderers too. If I run across something supporting this change in attitude I'll let you know.

01-23-2002, 08:33 AM	#3
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	I think they are neither! I believe it is very rare that a woman or even a teenage girl is not aware of the ramifications of pregnancy and abortion, and that these women have not thoroughly thought through their options. They are neither fools, nor murderers. They were fools to believe that the man or boy they slept with would generally be happy or supportive of a pregnancy, and even more foolish to place their life and future in the hands of someone on worthy of that honor. Birth control is a lovely thing and I have been on both sides of the crisis pregnancy situation. Unfortunately, pregnancy is a dangerous thing, even when successful. My younger sister is in a position right now where she is pregnant with her 5th child (she has had two miscarriages) and she was set to go into in two weeks to get her tubes tied. Her last pregnancy was very, very difficult for her and her doctor recommended she not get pregnant again. She has four young children and will be required to be on complete bed rest from here. Try doing that with a baby, a toddler and two school aged boys. There is no family in the area as we are all scattered about and therefore her support system in the immediate sense in non-existent. The problem is the baby is not growing at a normal rate and she has to be monitored regularly. The baby posses a direct threat to her life and if things continue to spiral downward they will have to perform a surgical abortion. She will have to choose an abortion, just as a woman choosing an abortion for other personal reasons. There is this horribly misguided notion that these women are somehow monsters, or perhaps selfish bitches who don’t want to be burdened with a baby. That is absolutely wrong. Perhaps there are cases of callous women who use abortion as a form of birth control, but those cases are few and far between. If abortion was criminalized, as it once was, this would be a horrible state of affairs. And as it happened before, the police would be checking every miscarriage to see if a woman somehow caused it. Almost every woman I know that has children, has at one point had a miscarriage. A very close friend of mine has had three in a row. Every woman of child-bearing age would be suspect. Imagine, the police coming into your home to arrest your wife, your daughter, or your mother because a miscarriage was reported and she had to go down to the station and be interrogated to see what REALLY caused the miscarriage. The horror – for goodness sakes, let’s go digress and return to a time when women had no control over their bodies, their destinies and were criminals just for having a uterus. Brighid

01-23-2002, 12:21 PM	#7
cheetah Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,118	Sometimes I lurk on unitedconservatives.com to see what the crazies are up to (some are normal, but some really are crazy, I think). And they had an abortion thread where this one guy just went off calling women sluts, bitches, etc.! I think it really showed how his feelings come more from misogyny and a desire to oppress women and their freedom for sex than to "save babies" I really thought his misogyny was disgusting! And of course, no one says anything about the guy that caused the pregnancy being a slut! As if the womna was able to conceive on her own or something! Ugh!

01-23-2002, 01:18 PM	#8
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	Brigid, the flipside is that there are also many single women who do not practise safe sex who do become pregnant. (This of course leaves out the responsibility of their partner.) For instance I believe that one of the major sources of teenage pregnancy is Catholic girls schools, which I would argue supports the "misguided" part of the question. Outside of stable relationships, safe sex is still far from universal.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.