D.H. Cross

The Establishment Clause doesn't apply to State (or municipal)
governments. For example, the Prebyterian Church was the State church of Connecticut until 1830, and many other States had laws restricting religious practice.

Daggah

No, it's not true. The 14th amendment extends the power of the First Amendment to all state and local governments.

D.H. Cross

But the 14th Amendment was not properly ratified. Next objection.

beejay

D.H.-

What seemed to start as an innocent question about the conflict between state-established churches and the First Amendment seems to really be an attack on the 14th Amendement.

If that is your argument, please explicitly state it. And be sure to mention why the Supreme Court disagrees.

Daggah

That's news to me...and to the Supreme Court, as well, given that they've been using the 14th amendment in CSS cases for a long time now.

D.H. Cross

[warning: what is below is NOT my position. I am trying to learn the history and so present this as a devil's advocate]

{copyrighted material from right wing conspiracy website replaced with URL by Toto}
http://www.etherzone.com/2002/burn110802.shtml

{copyrighted material from neo-confederate States' Liberty party website replaced with URL by Toto}
http://www.liberty-ca.org/usreligionhistory.htm

Daggah

The bolded statement is an opinion, not a statement of fact. At the core, the whole argument that the establishment clause is not extended by the 14th amendment is based not on any factual or logical argument, but an opinion.

And if the founding fathers didn't think that the government respecting an establishment of religion wouldn't infringe on people's rights, they probably would not have inserted the establishment clause in the Constitution. It DOES infringe on people's rights.

Daggah

Missed this the first time. Just because someone put this in a book doesn't mean it's true.

"Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.
We have solved ... the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries." - Thomas Jefferson

Splat

D.H.--it looks as if you've pasted the contents of somebody's column, which probably violates fair use. Please, always provide a URL and quote selectively.

Toto

D.H. - the websites you cut and pasted that material from (which is generally a no-no) would qualify as nutcase jobs. The first one has a libertarian orientation, and actually has some interesting stuff. The second one is decorated with confederate flags and is on a campaign to repeal the 17th amendment.

If you tried any of these arguments in a court of law, you would be laughed out of court.

(But it is true that states had established churches until quite late. The 14th amendment was not passed until after the civil war, so a state church in 1830 would have been legal.)