x-member

I've not been able to find anything online (perhaps I'm having a bad google day) about the origin of baptism before John The Baptist. Since much of xianity seems to have been adopted from other movements at the time, I'm wondering if there is any case for the practice of baptism to have also been borrowed from other religions. I'm mostly just curious about the history of the practice and its roots.

Jon "The Dry Head" Up North

Mageth

From <a href="http://www.philosophy-religion.org/world/jud_5.htm" target="_blank">here:</a>


DO JEWS BAPTIZE?

This question is asked frequently because John the Baptist baptized in the river Jordan, a "baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" (Mark 1:4f) and Jesus' disciples baptized (John 4:1), and perhaps Jesus did too even before the "glorification" (John 7:39). The meaning of this type of baptism is clarified by the practices of traditional Judaism today. It is believed that women are unclean at certain periods. A woman becomes ritually clean through immersion – Mikvah - a form of baptism. Through contact with women who are ritually unclean or through the violation of other tabus, a man may also become polluted (Lev. 11-15; Nums. 19). As a means of cleansing or purification and sanctification, a ritual of total immersion is required for him as well. Special baths called ritualariums are constructed by Orthodox communities for this purpose.

A Gentile wishing to become a Jew must also be totally immersed. In addition, a male must be circumcised. While the Temple was still in existence, an offering was required of both men and women but the outstanding feature is the baptism, declared by Hillel to be the decisive ceremony of conversion to Judaism.


Steeped in this tradition, John the Baptist exhorted the people to become both ceremonially and morally pure through repentance and baptism, in preparation for the Messianic kingdom, to save them from the wrath to come (Luke 3:7). Baptism in Judaism is never thought of as a means of removing the effects of a generic original sin; its purpose is the cleansing and restoration of an individual to his original state of purity, and it may be performed often, although a single baptism is adequate in connection with conversion.

As baptism developed in Christianity it was related to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ: the baptized spiritually died to sin and were buried or cleansed in water to rise to a new and perfect life in Christ. The early Christians recognized the significant difference between the baptism of John and that of Christianity, and those who had only the former baptism were rebaptized (Acts 19:3-6). Jews do baptize, although they do not use the term, but the meaning is different from that of Christian baptism.

Amos

Hello Jon, baptism is a Catholic Sacrament that is to make smooth and straight the path of salvation and so protect us from the wrath of God. From this follows that the wrath of God is equal to a rough path after salvation with many highs and lows which is the problem encountered by many "born agains" today.

Now John himself was born from parents that were at least one generation to old to have children to indicate that John was from the subconscious mind (the netherworld) wherein he prepared the way of salvation for the conscious mind. To be born of water and spirit now means that we must be reborn in both our conscious and subconscious mind or we will endure the wrath of God.

But I suppose you won't believe this anyway so I'll stop here.

Illithid

Y'know... I've been reading your posts, and some replies to them, and I've kept silent. But here I am, the next poster after you, and I just gotta say it.

To be totally sure I didn't believe what you said, it might be helpful if I could understand it.

Bree

So if you're baptised, it makes the road to "salvation" easier than for un-baptised people? Do baptised people have an easier time than the un-baptised? Does it really matter if you're trickled on or dunked?

Amos

The reason I stopped was that you, the reader, would not believe it because I am sure it is clear enough to understand.

The first paragraph simply states the purpose of baptism which is to make salvation easier from beginning to end. In other words, if we have to work out our own salvation baptism makes this easier and therefore possible. Golding told us that it is as "easy as eating and drinking."

In the second paragraph I showed how this is done and pointed out that John was [re]born in the subconscious mind (netherworld) and if indeed we are reborn in the netherworld prior to the conscious world we will have no problem to work out our own salvation. If we are not baptized [Sacramentally] we will not be reborn in the netherworld first and will therefore never be able to work out our own salvation. Hence the persistent paradox "sinful yet saved" so prevalent in born again circles today.

It is simply and true but difficult to accept as true.

Amos

Trickled or dunked does not matter (and if I was a priest I might dunk the odd mature female), but it must be a Sacramental Catholic baptism (the rare exception is Baptism by Fire but that is another story). Translate this to mean that there is no completion of salvation outside the Catholic Church in Christendom.

Edited to add "in Christendom" because Jews can also complete their salvation.

[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

Koyaanisqatsi

Congratulations, Amos. You are, without a doubt, the best poster child for atheism we could possibly imagine.

Amos

Thanks, and in case you wonder I do not disagree with atheists but only with protestants. I also never try to convert anyone to Catholicism.

Talulah

Hello,

I was reading about this the other day. One of the interesting things that I read is that originally the baptism was performed by the person dunking themselves in the water, (I am not placing bets on this, I just read it on the internet.)


<a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/pagan_origins_baptism.html" target="_blank">http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/pagan_origins_baptism.html</a>

Also type in Ancient Jewish Baptism in the search engine and a wealth of info will pop up. (Sorry I can't get any pages to load right at this minute)