DRFseven

from "Happiness"
written by Eytan Mirsky

"It seems the things I've wanted in
My life I've never had.
So it's no surprise that living
Only leaves me sad.

Happiness, where are you?
I've searched so long for you.
Happiness, where are you?
I haven't got a clue.
Happiness, why do you have to stay
So far away... from me?

MrDarwin suggest a question by bringing up a good point in another philosophical thread: Happiness is mental comfort and herein lies the motivation for all human behavior. I have a question. This question is for non-believers; it's a simple question, no hidden meaning, no strings. If you could be happier than you are now by pushing a "free will" button and becoming a believer, would you do it?

The response of most atheists/agnostics to this question is to evade the question by pointing out that since one can't push that mythical button, there is no use discussing it, or that they, personally, could never be happy being ignorant, that they have "too much integrity" to do such a thing, that if they changed in such a way, they wouldn't be themselves anymore (they'd be someone else) etc., etc. But in the imaginary circumstances of this question, happiness is a given if one only presses that button. Would you do it? If not, why not? Remember, once you became a believer, you would no longer think that belief was false.

Zenaphobe

You kind of sound like Morpheous from the movie the Matrix asking if I want the red pill or the blue pill.

Hmmm, would I push the button?

In your imaginary hypothetical world, sure, why not.

Jamie_L

This hypothetical can't be simply responded to. I can show this by changing it some:

Suppose by pressing a button, everyone you love will die, but you are guaranteed a happier life? Would you press the button?

Well, one would assume that you must undergo some fundamental change to be able to have a happier life after brining about the deaths of those you love. So, stating that "I wouldn't be the same person" is not really sidestepping the question.

But, let's say this is a bad example because it requires hurting others, which the original hypothetical does not. So here's another one:

Suppose you press a button and you become a slave for the rest of your life, but you are guranteed to be happier than you are now. Remember that once you press the button, you will no longer think being a slave is bad.

I think this illustrates that the notion of "being happy" is not as simple as just "feeling happy". Some things are important to us aside from being happy, and the notion of "being who we are" is important - and hardly sidesteps the question. Rather, it hits at the flaw in the question.

Jamie

parkdalian

No. Two reasons, there are other people to consider, and I wouldn't be myself anymore. The way I feel now, I might start spreading false beliefs because of my own new belief in God, then I'd have to say no. I now honestly think God is a big lie, so why would I want to participate knowingly (before the button press)in that?

And it is a fair answer to say that I wouldn't be myself anymore, so for that reason alone I wouldn't push the button.

The only way I could believe in an acceptable and honest way is if I was convinced by extraordinary evidence for the extraordinary claims of religion. Magic buttons, an old book, and word of mouth don't meet those requirements.

DRFseven

If the button made you happy to be a slave, you'd be happy to be a slave. Period. That disclaimer is included in the premise. What you are saying, Jamie, is that one might not be happy being happy.

I agree it is difficult to understand the reluctance to accepting such a thing. This is because we are looking at it from this side of the belief gap, which is, of course, what is interesting about this question. From this side, we perceive that a loss of understanding would occur, which seems a negative thing to us at this point in time. But none of that would apply on the other side; what we believed would seem true and it would seem that we had gained understanding. And, according to the premise, we'd be happier. So why not?

Theli

DRFseven...

No hidden meanings, huh?
Let's see...

First you start out with attacking atheists and agnostics on this board with this blind assumption.

And here comes the grand finally. Belief = Happiness. You stated this in your question, wich makes the question itself dishonest and just another blind assumption.

Here's another problem with your question. You call the button "a free-will button" and then claim that this button will force me to believe something (you haven't stated what) and through that taking my free will away from me.
As it is now, your question is incomplete. You must state what I will "believe in" after pushing the button before I can give you any answer.

DRFseven

1. You'd be happy for the "other people" to realize you believed; after all, you'd think your view was the correct one, just as you do now.

2. You WOULD be you; you be the "new you", as contained in the premise, just exactly as if you had come to some realization on your own that God exists. When we change our minds, we don't become different people; we're the same people with different mental constructs.

DRFseven

Heh, heh. Great movie, Zenaphobe. And thanks for the answer.

Jamie_L

DRFSeven: then my first example IS valid. Would you press the button knowing everyone you love would die, but you are GUARANTEED to be happier after pressing the button? I mean, after all, happiness is the be-all-end-all, right?

Maybe what I'm saying is this:

If I have to become a different person to be happy, then effectively the person I am ceases to exist. I am dead. I cannot be happy if I am dead. So, your hypothetical is an impossibility. "I" cannot be happy if pressing the button makes me someone I'm not.

Would you accept massive brain trauma that drastically altered your personality, left you virtually amnesiac, but left you perpetually happy?

No I would not press the "belief" button. I do not wish to destroy myself.

Jamie

parkdalian

If i now think I would be spreading a lie, even if I believed it to be true after the button press, it is still wrong for me to press it. To use an extreme example to make the point, if you could press a button that would make you think murder was okay and you could be happy would you press it? Murder is okay after the button, so why not, if it makes you "happy". Sort of hedonistic, temporal moral relativism ain't it.

As for being a "new me" after the press, it is still something I don't desire, call it what you want. I'm too far away from religious belief to think that I simply have to "change my mind".

Partly through reason and partly because of my emotional makeup, I don't believe in God and it would be a very big change. My world view is important to me and knowing what I now believe should be preserved (or allowed to naturally evolve) unless much, much better evidence for God is demonstrated.

Perhaps the better answer is that pressing a button to change my beliefs simply gives me the creeps. Remember that Star Trek episode where all of the people on a planet were turned into automatons by a machine? Dr McCoy becomes a member of "the body", the cult of Landru and his computer.