Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Treacle Worshipper · 03-03-2003, 05:24 AM

Gregg,
:notworthy
Thank you

Salmon of Doubt,
As I'm in much the same situation, I have to agree with you

spurly,
You mentioned "sexual preference". To me, preference = choice. Being gay is not a choice.
TW

sweep · 03-03-2003, 08:05 AM

Quote:

You are so lovingly, so calmly and reasonably, teaching a lie.

what riles me is the way some people throw around the word 'love'. (not you gregg) They're like one of those farmyard muck spreaders, with a big bumper heart sticker on the side: "I love you// *splat*"

And... If god revealed himself... behold, Gregg. On your knees people. Seems like you don't need a wife gregg. You have the internet equivelant, right here.

God, is there a cure for being a reptile?

This is one for everybody; I don't mean anything bad by it, but no matter who you might be:

Everybody's searching for a hero
People need someone to look up to
I never found anyone who fulfilled my needs
A lonely place to be,
And so I learned to depend on me
I decided long ago never to walk
in anyone's shadow
If I fail, If I succeed,
at least I live as I believe
No matter what they take from me
they can't take away my dignity
Because the greatest
love of all is happening to me
I've found the greatest love of all inside of me
The greatest love of all is easy to achieve
Learning to love yourself
it is the greatest love of all

GreggLD1 · 03-03-2003, 08:52 AM

Dear Kevin,

I "understand" your point of view. Although I was never a fundamentalist or even a "mainstream" Christian, I was a theist for many years, and the idea of life and sexuality being "gifts" is still very much with me, even though I now consider myself an agnostic. I do not see your attitude as "hate." That does not, however, change the fact that it is wrong, and that it causes many people unnecessary pain.

You keep coming back to this business of homosexuality being a sin, saying it has "negative consequences" and comparing it to running through the house with a sharp knife. But what exactly are these "negative consequences" of homosexuality? AIDs? As I'm sure you know, AIDs is not a "gay disease."

It seems to me that the "negative consequences" of the "sin" of homosexuality are pretty much all related to how people treat homosexuals. For example, have you ever considered that if there is proportionately more promiscuity in the gay community than in the heterosexual community, it just MIGHT be because society doesn't give gay people as many opportunities to mature emotionally and learn how to form lasting relationships?

If people would simply stop calling homosexuality a sin, and allow homosexuals to express themselves (within the same general standards that we hold heterosexuals to) without fear of abuse or ridicule or discrimination--if we'd let them date, experience "puppy love" and teen heartbreak, go to the prom, marry, etc.--let them mature emotionally instead of forcing them to repress their feelings and deny their identity, then I think you'd find that gay people wouldn't have any more problems with their sexuality than straight people do. And they would have a whole lot less pain in their lives. Isn't that what you say you want for them? Isn't that what you want for anyone you love?

So why can't you just drop this archaic nonsense about homosexuality being a sin? Just let it go, be free of it, the same way you've let go of the idea that it's OK to have slaves just because a 2,000 year old book says it is. Don't work for a "kinder, gentler" condemnation of homosexuality-- work to eliminate the whole idea that homosexuality is a "sin" deserving of any kind of condemnation at all. Just as Emancipation ended slavery's thousands-of-years-old legacy of pain, grief, and suffering, you can be part of the work of ending the long, painful legacy of discrimination based on sexual orientation.

Gregg

Quote:

Originally posted by spurly
Gregg,

Because you and I are coming to this subject (and many others) with conflicting world views, we will have to walk away and say - I didn't agree with what Gregg (or Kevin) said, but I love him anyway.

I think one of the main mountains between us is that we do see life so differently. I see it as a gift from God, you see it as a product of natural origin. Because of this basic difference, almost every subject we can think of is affected. What I see as love, you see as hate. What you see as love, I see as not very loving (i.e., just accepting people and whatever they are doing because that's who they are, and if that is what they are doing, it's okay). The most loving thing to do, from my world view, is to point them back to the one who loves them more than anyone else ever could, and that is God.

If I saw a child running through the house with a sharp knife, I would try to lovingly take the knife away from them so that they would not get hurt. Why? Because I see the danger for themselves in what they are doing. Would I berate the child for doing that? No, they are only a child. But I would lovingly point them to a more excellent way.

That's the same way I view any sin. Whether it be in my life or someone else's. That sin has negative consequences. Because I love them, and I want what is best for them, I would lovingly try to show them God's best plan for living. Would I berate them? No. One of my themes in ministry has always been, "love them until they ask you why". It's what I am called to do.

I hope you understand.

Kevin

Sue Sponte · 03-03-2003, 09:04 AM

The answer to why christians look down on gays, and so many others, is simple: it makes them feel better about themselves. No christian is willing or capable of admitting this, instead developing rhetoric in an attempt to explain the hate. "I don't hate the person, just the act", the single biggest load of bullshit ever stated. Other than appearance, there is no way to judge humans other than by their actions, so the whole concept is crap.

Hating, hurting and degrading others has been an instinct of humanity for all time. Over time, but way too damn slowly, the instinct has been somewhat overcome on certain issues (slavery being a prime example, but racism still remains), but there is so far yet to go. I hope the species eventually overcomes this instinct, but it ain't going to happen in the near future. Not with people believing that it is acceptable to hate something about another that is none of their freakin' business.

If you are judging others negatively over an inate attribute, you are a bigot. Yes, YOU ARE A BIGOT. Fashion all the explanations you want for why you are a bigot, but please don't insult me about how this is "love". Something like politicians that want to "help" the homeless and show their "love" by refusing to provide them with any support.

This thread typifies what I regard as the prime evil in society today: religious-based belief that it is acceptable to look down on certain parts of society. To you who fall in this category, I pity that you cannot see what you truly are.

malookiemaloo · 03-03-2003, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sue Sponte
The answer to why christians look down on gays, and so many others, is simple: it makes them feel better about themselves. No christian is willing or capable of admitting this, instead developing rhetoric in an attempt to explain the hate. "I don't hate the person, just the act", the single biggest load of bullshit ever stated. Other than appearance, there is no way to judge humans other than by their actions, so the whole concept is crap.

Hating, hurting and degrading others has been an instinct of humanity for all time. Over time, but way too damn slowly, the instinct has been somewhat overcome on certain issues (slavery being a prime example, but racism still remains), but there is so far yet to go. I hope the species eventually overcomes this instinct, but it ain't going to happen in the near future. Not with people believing that it is acceptable to hate something about another that is none of their freakin' business.

If you are judging others negatively over an inate attribute, you are a bigot. Yes, YOU ARE A BIGOT. Fashion all the explanations you want for why you are a bigot, but please don't insult me about how this is "love". Something like politicians that want to "help" the homeless and show their "love" by refusing to provide them with any support.

This thread typifies what I regard as the prime evil in society today: religious-based belief that it is acceptable to look down on certain parts of society. To you who fall in this category, I pity that you cannot see what you truly are.

This sort of subject doesn't half bring out the worst in people-theists and non-theists alike.

malookiemaloo

GreggLD1 · 03-03-2003, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sue Sponte
If you are judging others negatively over an inate attribute

You know, this is the crux of the whole thing. Given what we now know about homosexuality, saying "I love you, but your homosexuality is a sin" is like saying, "I love you, but your blackness is a sin."

Gregg

03-03-2003, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sweep

God, is there a cure for being a reptile?

This is one for everybody; I don't mean anything bad by it, but no matter who you might be:

Everybody's searching for a hero
People need someone to look up to
I never found anyone who fulfilled my needs
A lonely place to be,
And so I learned to depend on me
I decided long ago never to walk
in anyone's shadow
If I fail, If I succeed,
at least I live as I believe
No matter what they take from me
they can't take away my dignity
Because the greatest
love of all is happening to me
I've found the greatest love of all inside of me
The greatest love of all is easy to achieve
Learning to love yourself
it is the greatest love of all

How to cure a reptile: teach it to walk upright and face the day.

This is the greatest commandment: To love the lord your god with all you heart soul and mind. How do you love the lord your god with all your heart soul and mind? To get to know the depth width and breadth of of the lord your god so you may have the mind of God. So now, the greatest commandment is to know your own self and be[come] just who you are.

The problem with needing a hero is to be without a dream to live. If we do have a dream our dream will be our hero and we will have a reason to search for meaning in life.

You're right again sweep (I seem to remember the first time that you were right).

Bree · 03-03-2003, 11:31 AM

[moderator hat]
Let's try to keep the preaching to a minimum, okay?
[/moderator hat]

Quote:

Originally posted by spurly:
If I saw a child running through the house with a sharp knife, I would try to lovingly take the knife away from them so that they would not get hurt. Why? Because I see the danger for themselves in what they are doing. Would I berate the child for doing that? No, they are only a child. But I would lovingly point them to a more excellent way.

A few questions for you, spurly. The situation you described above is a no-brainer. The child with the knife could easily hurt himself if the knife isn't taken away. However, I don't see how this relates to homosexuality. How is homosexuality the same as running with a knife? If you're talking about promiscuity or disease, you might as well include heterosexuality in there as well - both parties are equally susceptible to disease and a lack of fidelity to one's partner.

What is so darned "dangerous" about homosexuality? Why does the homosexual need to be rescued? What's the danger? The answer to this question cannot be "the danger of rotting in hell for eternity" because some homosexuals don't believe in hell. If you could point out the real dangers (and prove they exist) maybe you'd have a better chance of converting us.

03-03-2003, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bree
[moderator hat]
Let's try to keep the preaching to a minimum, okay?
[/moderator hat]

Hi Bree, I hope that was not addressed to me because if anything I was 'un-preaching' to show agreement with sweep that we must get to know who we are and act upon that knowledge. This kind on means that religion should never bite you in the ass.

wildernesse · 03-03-2003, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sue Sponte
The answer to why christians look down on gays, and so many others, is simple: it makes them feel better about themselves. No christian is willing or capable of admitting this, instead developing rhetoric in an attempt to explain the hate.

Some Christians. Is your willingness to lump all Christians into a pile of anti-homosexual bigots similar to those Christians wishing to lump all homosexuals into the nasty and sinful deviants pile?

-tibac

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03-03-2003, 05:24 AM	#51
Treacle Worshipper Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Wales, UK Posts: 931	Gregg, :notworthy Thank you Salmon of Doubt, As I'm in much the same situation, I have to agree with you spurly, You mentioned "sexual preference". To me, preference = choice. Being gay is not a choice. TW

03-03-2003, 09:04 AM	#54
Sue Sponte Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: west Posts: 1,213	The answer to why christians look down on gays, and so many others, is simple: it makes them feel better about themselves. No christian is willing or capable of admitting this, instead developing rhetoric in an attempt to explain the hate. "I don't hate the person, just the act", the single biggest load of bullshit ever stated. Other than appearance, there is no way to judge humans other than by their actions, so the whole concept is crap. Hating, hurting and degrading others has been an instinct of humanity for all time. Over time, but way too damn slowly, the instinct has been somewhat overcome on certain issues (slavery being a prime example, but racism still remains), but there is so far yet to go. I hope the species eventually overcomes this instinct, but it ain't going to happen in the near future. Not with people believing that it is acceptable to hate something about another that is none of their freakin' business. If you are judging others negatively over an inate attribute, you are a bigot. Yes, YOU ARE A BIGOT. Fashion all the explanations you want for why you are a bigot, but please don't insult me about how this is "love". Something like politicians that want to "help" the homeless and show their "love" by refusing to provide them with any support. This thread typifies what I regard as the prime evil in society today: religious-based belief that it is acceptable to look down on certain parts of society. To you who fall in this category, I pity that you cannot see what you truly are.

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