Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Westley Roberts · 10-31-2002, 10:42 AM

Greetings, I have a personal view on why this planet has religion. I would post this view, but I need to have questions answered first..perhaps you could help...

(Mind you none of the following questions will change my post, only verify if I will or won't)

1. Is this the proper forum, or should I post in another?

2. Am I able to place what I belive religion is all about on this website?

3. Will I get opposing viewpoints as well as agreeable viewpoints?

4. Would someone assist me in understanding wheter or not I'm off my rocker?

I think that will cover it for the moment...I'll check back and see if anyone has responded, or ever perhaps a moderator has given the green light...

until then...

"Have fun storming the castle"

Westley

Mageth · 10-31-2002, 10:56 AM

1. Is this the proper forum, or should I post in another?

This is probably a good place to start. It may get moved to another forum if necessary.

2. Am I able to place what I belive religion is all about on this website?

You're definitely allowed to, as long as you stay within forum rules. As to whether you're able to, that's a question you must answer.

3. Will I get opposing viewpoints as well as agreeable viewpoints?

You may get opposing and/or agreeable viewpoints.

4. Would someone assist me in understanding wheter or not I'm off my rocker?

Insufficient input at this point.

Sunfair · 10-31-2002, 10:59 AM

1. Post anyway, if it's not the right forum a mod will move it for you.

2. You and everyone else.

3. Certainly.

4. Undoubtably.

Welcome to the boards!

Westley Roberts · 10-31-2002, 04:09 PM

OK, Here goes..but first disclaimers...

*****************
This will be in two parts: The first being my thoughts on WHY we have religion; The second part HOW it came to be and why it still exists.

This will be completely Generalized, both Religious and Gender will be non specific. This is to ease my telling and for others to understand the terms used and place their proper defintions in it's place.

*****************

OK, on with WHY there is religion:

The first thing we, as the Human Race, need to understand is that we are Self-Aware. Meaning we know we are alive and on this planet. The second thing is to take that a step further and ask the question 'WHY are we here'. Someone in our long forgotten past came up with a solution...THE GRAND TEST

THE GRAND TEST is as follows...We are here for a reason; not just to be born, live a few years, then die. That is for everything else on the planet. Mind you, once again, we are Self-Aware. Since we are Self-Aware, there must be a reason for us being here. Hence, THE GRAND TEST. This is the basis of all religion, Pass the test, get prizes...Fail the test, Burn in Hell (insert bad ending here). I have yet to hear of any religion that does not follow the rule.

Now for the tricky part...HOW it came to be...

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far, away....oops wrong story...

A long time ago, back when we were but hunters and gatherers ( No Cities ) there was a system in place that had a group of people led by one person, or group of people. This leadership decided all, who hunted, who gathered, who lived, who died, who slept with whom. Kinda like a Lion Pride.
Now, sometime it that period, someone else wanted some power...but, he didn't exactly have the power to overthrow the leadership. But still, he wanted to exert some authority. This person probably already had some hold on the group, but not as much as he liked. He may have been the groups healer. He may have been a storyteller. He may have been some combination of the two, but still he had some type of power within the system.
This 'Shaman' brainstormed one evening and decided that what the leadership wanted and what he wanted were not exactly the same. So, he thought up what he wanted the group to do that was different and came up with a GREAT story.
This story had a certain element, a 'Supreme Being' (SB). The SB was the basis of how the 'Shaman' was to exert his authority.
Now, follow me on this one.
The Shaman tells the group the things he wants to have happen, but since he does not have the authority, like the leadership, he borrows the authority from the SB. He tells the group that the SB is of another level of existence, and once we die you will be sent to him or another of his ilk and be judged. For there must be a reason we are here. Upon judgement, you will be sent to your next level, be it good or bad, or retake THE GRAND TEST. To assist the Shaman, the SB has delivered to him a set of instructions, by one form or another, and that they should follow them to assist in passing THE GRAND TEST. Some of the group has already had some sort of thoughts along this line and decide to follow him, thereby undercutting the authority of the leadership. Thus begins the first religious leader and his followers.

****************

This story is probably slighty disjointed since it is the first time I have put it down in words, but it is my belief system on the basis of all religions and how they came to be.
If anyone has any information on where I can research more on this line, please reply and inform me.
If anyone cares to discuss this post, please reply. I am open to all discussion.

If you have gotten this far, I sincerely thank you for your time. I am looking forward to any thoughts you may have on this subject.

"ROUS's?? Rodent's of Unusual Size ? They don't exist"

HelenM · 10-31-2002, 05:09 PM

Hi Westley

I'm a Christian but I was quite interested to read your theory, anyway. Welcome to this site!

I'm wondering - I see that you have the Shaman knowing he's making up the Supreme Being and doing it to gain power. Have you considered this: is it possible that he really did believe a (the) Supreme Being spoke to him?

Anyway, why do you think other people believed him when he told them about the Supreme Being?

take care
Helen

Westley Roberts · 10-31-2002, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenM:
Hi Westley

I'm a Christian but I was quite interested to read your theory, anyway. Welcome to this site!

I'm wondering - I see that you have the Shaman knowing he's making up the Supreme Being and doing it to gain power. Have you considered this: is it possible that he really did believe a (the) Supreme Being spoke to him?

Anyway, why do you think other people believed him when he told them about the Supreme Being?

take care
Helen

Response to #1, Had he believed that a SB spoke to him would only further the belief in a higher power. Thereby strenghtening your side. My conclusion follows that he wanted more authority within the group. Mind you that this is just for one group, one religion. There are more religions than we have languages. We have something now, in the present which supports my theory, CULTS. One person saying a SB told him to tell you what to do.

Response to #2, I don't wish to put down anyone that beleives in a SB, but mayhaps, they wanted to belive in a SB that told them things they wanted to hear, or even better, the storyteller was REALLY GOOD...once again, CULTS follow this same thread...

Addendum... Realize that this also follows the line of a good con artist or someone in that field...a telemarketer, a thief, a salesperson, any of a host of people that make you want to belive in something they concocted, only to have you follow them for one reason or another...

Once again, only my belief, maybe not yours. If this sounds like something you have heard before, please respond with a reference, I'd love to learn more on this line of thought...

Thanks.

"Sleep well, for I'll most likely kill you in the morning..."

Marduk · 11-01-2002, 06:48 AM

I believe Shamans did think they encountered a supreme or supreme beings. They were heavily into very potent hallucinogenic roots, fungus and plants. Not to mention their obsession with dreams and achieving a trance or meditative state of mind. Read “The Way of the Shaman”

I think using religion for power & politics came after civilization was underway. (it was a great way for the preistly class to avoid work, which was very rough in those days) "throw your money in the air, what God wants he'll take, we'll keep the rest"

[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: marduck ]

Westley Roberts · 11-01-2002, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by marduck:
I believe Shamans did think they encountered a supreme or supreme beings.

Ok, back to the disclaimer, the term "Shaman" was only used to grasp the meaning of what I was speaking of, not a an actual Title or Position. Please feel free to change the term to any of the following, or maybe you can think of another...Pastor, Father, Witch doctor, Faith Healer, Monk, Priest, Pope, Shaman, whatever the name of a head witch of a coven would be...get my drift??

Not trying to make it sound like I'm bashing your response, just trying to clarify why I chose that term. Was meant to be non specific....

" I'll send my four fastest ships..."

-RRH- · 11-01-2002, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Westley Roberts:
...We have something now, in the present which supports my theory, CULTS...

I have no reason to think that cults are a modern invention.

Though I suppose that's really what you're saying, if you don't mind me spouting my own interpretation. The major religions nowadays could easily have once been cults started by charismatic leaders.

[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: RRH ]

Westley Roberts · 11-02-2002, 06:14 AM

RRH, Exactly what I have been attempting to get across...

I never meant to slap a permanent label on a position of authority within the religious group, nor to label the religion. I only used a term or two to get the point across.
My theory is still the someone wanted power, they came up with an idea which says why we are here, and they made a story to fit their needs. People followed him based on the story.

Hopefully my point is a little clearer now.

"Welcome to the Pit of Despair, don't ever think of escaping."

11-01-2002, 06:48 AM	#7
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	I believe Shamans did think they encountered a supreme or supreme beings. They were heavily into very potent hallucinogenic roots, fungus and plants. Not to mention their obsession with dreams and achieving a trance or meditative state of mind. Read “The Way of the Shaman” I think using religion for power & politics came after civilization was underway. (it was a great way for the preistly class to avoid work, which was very rough in those days) "throw your money in the air, what God wants he'll take, we'll keep the rest" [ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: marduck ]</p>

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-31-2002, 10:42 AM	#1
Westley Roberts Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Woodbridge VA Posts: 17	My View on Relgion as a whole.. Greetings, I have a personal view on why this planet has religion. I would post this view, but I need to have questions answered first..perhaps you could help... (Mind you none of the following questions will change my post, only verify if I will or won't) 1. Is this the proper forum, or should I post in another? 2. Am I able to place what I belive religion is all about on this website? 3. Will I get opposing viewpoints as well as agreeable viewpoints? 4. Would someone assist me in understanding wheter or not I'm off my rocker? I think that will cover it for the moment...I'll check back and see if anyone has responded, or ever perhaps a moderator has given the green light... until then... "Have fun storming the castle" Westley

10-31-2002, 10:56 AM	#2
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	1. Is this the proper forum, or should I post in another? This is probably a good place to start. It may get moved to another forum if necessary. 2. Am I able to place what I belive religion is all about on this website? You're definitely allowed to, as long as you stay within forum rules. As to whether you're able to, that's a question you must answer. 3. Will I get opposing viewpoints as well as agreeable viewpoints? You may get opposing and/or agreeable viewpoints. 4. Would someone assist me in understanding wheter or not I'm off my rocker? Insufficient input at this point.

10-31-2002, 10:59 AM	#3
Sunfair Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: USA Posts: 110	1. Post anyway, if it's not the right forum a mod will move it for you. 2. You and everyone else. 3. Certainly. 4. Undoubtably. Welcome to the boards!

10-31-2002, 04:09 PM	#4
Westley Roberts Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Woodbridge VA Posts: 17	OK, Here goes..but first disclaimers... *************** This will be in two parts: The first being my thoughts on WHY we have religion; The second part HOW it came to be and why it still exists. This will be completely Generalized, both Religious and Gender will be non specific. This is to ease my telling and for others to understand the terms used and place their proper defintions in it's place. ************* OK, on with WHY there is religion: The first thing we, as the Human Race, need to understand is that we are Self-Aware. Meaning we know we are alive and on this planet. The second thing is to take that a step further and ask the question 'WHY are we here'. Someone in our long forgotten past came up with a solution...THE GRAND TEST THE GRAND TEST is as follows...We are here for a reason; not just to be born, live a few years, then die. That is for everything else on the planet. Mind you, once again, we are Self-Aware. Since we are Self-Aware, there must be a reason for us being here. Hence, THE GRAND TEST. This is the basis of all religion, Pass the test, get prizes...Fail the test, Burn in Hell (insert bad ending here). I have yet to hear of any religion that does not follow the rule. Now for the tricky part...HOW it came to be... A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far, away....oops wrong story... A long time ago, back when we were but hunters and gatherers ( No Cities ) there was a system in place that had a group of people led by one person, or group of people. This leadership decided all, who hunted, who gathered, who lived, who died, who slept with whom. Kinda like a Lion Pride. Now, sometime it that period, someone else wanted some power...but, he didn't exactly have the power to overthrow the leadership. But still, he wanted to exert some authority. This person probably already had some hold on the group, but not as much as he liked. He may have been the groups healer. He may have been a storyteller. He may have been some combination of the two, but still he had some type of power within the system. This 'Shaman' brainstormed one evening and decided that what the leadership wanted and what he wanted were not exactly the same. So, he thought up what he wanted the group to do that was different and came up with a GREAT story. This story had a certain element, a 'Supreme Being' (SB). The SB was the basis of how the 'Shaman' was to exert his authority. Now, follow me on this one. The Shaman tells the group the things he wants to have happen, but since he does not have the authority, like the leadership, he borrows the authority from the SB. He tells the group that the SB is of another level of existence, and once we die you will be sent to him or another of his ilk and be judged. For there must be a reason we are here. Upon judgement, you will be sent to your next level, be it good or bad, or retake THE GRAND TEST. To assist the Shaman, the SB has delivered to him a set of instructions, by one form or another, and that they should follow them to assist in passing THE GRAND TEST. Some of the group has already had some sort of thoughts along this line and decide to follow him, thereby undercutting the authority of the leadership. Thus begins the first religious leader and his followers. ************** This story is probably slighty disjointed since it is the first time I have put it down in words, but it is my belief system on the basis of all religions and how they came to be. If anyone has any information on where I can research more on this line, please reply and inform me. If anyone cares to discuss this post, please reply. I am open to all discussion. If you have gotten this far, I sincerely thank you for your time. I am looking forward to any thoughts you may have on this subject. "ROUS's?? Rodent's of Unusual Size ? They don't exist"

10-31-2002, 05:09 PM	#5
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	Hi Westley I'm a Christian but I was quite interested to read your theory, anyway. Welcome to this site! I'm wondering - I see that you have the Shaman knowing he's making up the Supreme Being and doing it to gain power. Have you considered this: is it possible that he really did believe a (the) Supreme Being spoke to him? Anyway, why do you think other people believed him when he told them about the Supreme Being? take care Helen

11-02-2002, 06:14 AM	#10
Westley Roberts Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Woodbridge VA Posts: 17	RRH, Exactly what I have been attempting to get across... I never meant to slap a permanent label on a position of authority within the religious group, nor to label the religion. I only used a term or two to get the point across. My theory is still the someone wanted power, they came up with an idea which says why we are here, and they made a story to fit their needs. People followed him based on the story. Hopefully my point is a little clearer now. "Welcome to the Pit of Despair, don't ever think of escaping."

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.