Philosoft

You mean the idea that human opinions about natural states-of-affairs are somehow binding on the possible actions of an all-powerful, transcendent thing?

Keep thinking. It'll come to you.

Jayhawker Soule

Q: Does the presence of suffering mean the absence of God?
A: No. Therefore?

Steven Carr

God *has* to cause pain to help us? What happened to the God of Genesis 1 who created good things simply by saying so??

Pity the billion poor Muslims who seem to have to go to Hell because they looked at the wrong clues.

Isn't this just gibberish? A) This universe has existed for a finite time. B) It is no job of evolution to conquer evil.

Quote
1) God is all-powerful
~Can do everything meaningful and possible
~Cannot make himself cease to exist
~Cannot make good evil
~Cannot make mistakes
-- You can't have free will without the possibility of evil--

CARR
That is why God has created angels like Michael and Gabriel who have free will and have never chosen evil.


QUOTE
God didn't CREATE evil, he created the POSSIBILITY of evil =]

CARR
God created all things - ask Christians. God sustains all things - ask Christians. Therefore, God created and sustained evil.

QUOTE
LOVE: Real love must involve a choice- a choice to love or to hate. God created the world without sin, but with the POSSIBILITY of sin... It is US who's to blame for suffering because WE constantly choose TO sin... THe majority of our suffering in this world is due to the choices to kill, slander, be selfish, stray sexually, break promises, be recklace, etc.

CARR
God could have created us so that we had the same desire to sin as we do for walking by crawling around backwards on our hands and knees. Sure, it is *possible* for us to get around by crawling backwards on our hands and knees, but God has created us so that, of our own free will, we choose not to do so.

southernhybrid

Using you own bear, hunter, trap analogy makes me really wonder how you can still believe that such a creature, as god exists. God made us suffer, then he has to make us suffer more before the suffering will end. That's a pretty sadistic picture you paint of this god spirit.

If god wanted to help us, why didn't he just give us help to begin with, instead of tricking us into stepping in his own trap. It doesn't seem fair, when he is supposed to be all wise and knowing and we are just weak, stupid mortals. But wait, he is also supposed to be a just and forgiving god. Why would an entity so just, make the odds so uneven? He's got the traps, and we don't have the equipment to get out of the traps. God is not a nice person at all. Oh I forgot he's not a person. But wait, didn't he become a person in the body of Jesus. I guess he is a person, and what a tricky, evil, person this god is! It seems he likes to get his jollies by playing head games with his children.

I don't think the Christian god is a very moral one. He creates billions of people and makes it so tricky to reach him, that only a few of them get to really know him. The rest, will be tortured and burn in hell, forever and ever. Amen! Praise be to god. Only he knows what's best for his children. I'm sorry but your god is guilty of child abuse. Your god is very creepy.

It makes me think that just maybe, ( duh ) man created god in his own image. In fact, it seems that god has some of the worst human qualities. If I were ever to believe in god again, I'd be looking for a much kinder and gentler god.

DarkBronzePlant

You might want to post this bit in the Evolution/Creation thread and watch them tear it up. In a nutshell, whoever wrote this doesn't know what they are talking about. Nowhere is it claimed that evolution has a goal of ending evil. Nowhere is it claimed that there is a potential point where evolution would be "finished." In fact, evolution has no goal whatsoever. It is not moral, it is not immoral, it is amoral. The only expected result of evolution is that over long periods of time, species will adapt to survive in their environments. These environments change constantly, so even if there was some "perfect state" that species could achieve, their environment would soon change, and thus, so once again would the species.

This problem seems to occur when Christians view evolution as competition to their god, and start ascribing human characteristics to it, much the same way they do to their god. Anytime you see someone try to personify evolution, a giant red flag with the words Strawman Argument should be raised.

Echo

Kalestia,

You made a lot of points, but I'd like to ask you about this one in particular:

I don't understand this. Are you saying we can only make a free choice about a claim if we have insufficient evidence to support it?

This indicates to me that this god finds it virtuous for a person to evaluate claims this way. He finds it desirable for a person to conclude he exists based on insufficient evidence; but he finds it undesirable for a person to evaluate the evidence, find that it is insufficient to warrant belief, and conclude "this god probably does not exist" or even "I don't know." The latter seems quite rational, so I have a hard time understanding why a loving god would not want us to evaluate claims this way.

And even if the evidence was sufficient to warrant assent to the claim "god exists," wouldn't we still be free to choose whether we wanted to love and serve this god or not? Presumably the devil has this option.

Kalestia

Carr- God doesn't directly cause us pain as much as people think. It's usually our own decision whether or not to get involved in something painful, is it not? However, God can and does take that hurtful situation and turn it into something helpful. We all learn from our mistakes, who's to say "He" doesn't help us learn?

God didn't create evil. Let's make something clear... "evil" in the Christian sense is simply Rebellion against God. Did God create rebellion against himself? Nah, but he allowed the opportunity to exist: Free Will.

And, assuming this "God" is the God of the Christians, it would mean that he DIDN'T create us with the desire to sin.

SouthernHybrid- We stepped in that trap on our own, God didn't force it on us. If that trap wasn't there, then there would be no reason to want God around. The Christian God has the nature of a Father, and us as his children. He wants us to choose to love him, and he's always willing to help us out of the trap.

Then why didn't he decide to help us without all these "tricks" and traps and such? In the same way you tell a child "Don't eat that" but let him find out for his own. That way he learns, in theory anyway

DarkBronzePlant- Quite frankly, I agree with you and your point about that evolution argument being pretty crappy, lol. I didn't buy it either when I read it- but it does bring up a question. If evolution is completely amoral, then where does morality come from? O.o Maybe that should be a whole 'nother topic hehe

Echo- The way you word your response makes sense in the way you said it. However, the conclusion can change when it's realized that there IS sufficient evidence for the existance of God. There is not hardcore proof, for God values faith and trust tremendously, but God has given us enuf evidence. It's up to us to look for it and pay attention.

And so if there IS evidence of his existance, and perhaps we acknowledge it, do we still have a choice to love and serve God? Of course! You're exactly right in the fact that the devil knows God exists but rebels. It's a matter of personally deciding whether the Christian idea of God's nature is true or not. And to determine that, we must look closer at the evidence given

Mad Kally

God is the only childhood myth carried over into adulthood. (TM)

Jamie_L

I wouldn't make that assumption. Most people are hurt by OTHER people. Maybe they choose to involve us in pain, but it's not like an abused child asks for it. And God did create that other person and allowed that other person to have free will, so from the perspective of the individual, they never had a choice. God knowingly put the choice in the hands of someone else - someone that an ominscient God would know was going to cause pain.

And that doesn't even begin to cover natural disasters.

God created all things, including those with free will. If God is omniscient, he knows all the choices his creations will ever make. When he even thought about making humans, he would have known they would rebel. He could have changed his mind then and created something that wouldn't rebel. He didn't. Thus, if he exists, he created all this evil.

If we were not created with the desire to sin, we wouldn't sin.

This kind of arguement does not mesh with the notion of an omnipotent God. Whatever wisdom you gain from learning by experience should be something God can grant you with the snap of his metaphorical fingers. To say that God is incapable of giving us wisdom without using experience to teach us is to deny his omnipotence.


Like...

Why? Why is it on our shoulders to overcome the obstacles God created? We have only the tools God gave us. He's omnipotent, for pity's sake. How can we possibly be expected to find evidence if he wants to hide it from us? And if he doesn't want to hide it completely, but just pretty good, what's the point? To help us learn? See the bit about teaching through experiecne and omnipotence above?

Jamie

Synaesthesia

If God wants to disguise himself as non-existant, I would no more want to find him than I would want to hit a despot simply because he likes to box.

I wouldn't, that is, if I value my life. God clearly has a reason for hiding himself behind superstition and illogic.


--------
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
-- Douglas Adams,