Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kalestia · 07-21-2002, 04:49 PM

This is a CHRISTIAN point of view on the existance of God and suffering. Don't attack me personally, cuz this has nothing to do with me

For I am simply offering a **Christian's** answer to the question.

~Does the presence of suffering mean the absence of God?~

"If someone thinks he can wrap up everything in a neat little package and put a fancy theological bow on it, go somewhere else."

(A metaphor, and quotes, used by John Kreeft, PH.D.): Let's say you have three things- a bear, a trap, and a hunter. The bear is caught in the trap and the hunter wishes to help. In order to do that, the hunter must shoot the bear with drugs... But the bear thinks he's being attacked. Then the hunter has to push the bear's leg further into the trap in order to release it, and the bear would be convinced of his previous conclusion. But the bear is wrong. Now how do we know that we arent the bear and the hunter is not God? We wouldn't realize how God is helping us, because we are not God.

FAITH: We have CLUES to follow for God's existance. If there were anything more or less than clues, we woudln't really be free to make a decision about God.

"If there is no God, why is there good? If there is a God, why is there so much evil?" - Augustine

If anything- such as suffering- can be judged as evil or simply "not good"- then we have some notion of an overall Good... "If there is no God, where did we get this standard of goodness by which we judge evil as evil?"

EVOLUTION: If there isnt a creator, which means no moment of creaTION, then everything's resulted from evolution. "If there's no beginning or 1st cause, then the universe must have always existed. That means the universe has been evolving for an infinite period of time and, by now, everything should already be perfect. There would have been plenty of time for evolution to have finished and evil to have been vanquished..."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Christians believe in 5 things:
~God exists
~God is all-good
~God is all-powerful
~God is all-knowing
~Evil exists

1) God is all-powerful
~Can do everything meaningful and possible
~Cannot make himself cease to exist
~Cannot make good evil
~Cannot make mistakes
-- You can't have free will without the possibility of evil--

God didn't CREATE evil, he created the POSSIBILITY of evil =]
"The source of evil is not God's power, but mankind's freedom."

LOVE: Real love must involve a choice- a choice to love or to hate. God created the world without sin, but with the POSSIBILITY of sin... It is US who's to blame for suffering because WE constantly choose TO sin... THe majority of our suffering in this world is due to the choices to kill, slander, be selfish, stray sexually, break promises, be recklace, etc.

2) God is all-knowing
"God, if he is all-wise, knows not only the present but hte future. And he knows not only present good and evil but future good and evil. If his wisdom vastly exceeds ours, as the hunter's exceeds the bear's, it is at least possible... that a loving God could deliberately tolerate horrible things like starvation because he foresees that in the long run that more people will be better and happier than if he miraculously intervened. That's at least intellectually possile."
EXAMPLE: Death of God on the cross...Nobody that time could see any real good in such a tragedy. But God saw that it'd result in the opening of heaven for humans. THe worst tragedy brought the most wonderful event in history. "And if it happens there- if the ultimate evil can result in the ultimate good- it can happen elsewhere, even in our individual lives. Elsewhere he simply says, 'Trust me.' "

3) God is all-good
"Good" would be even MORE different between us and God than it is different between us and, say, animals. We don't always bail people out of their own, sometimes self-made problems. We don't to our child's homework for them. We don't wrap them in a protective bubble so they will never get hurt.

"Sometimes being good is NOT being kind." Even the ancient Greeks thought the gods taught wisdom through suffering.
"We know that moral character gets formed through hardship, through overcoming obstacles, through enduring despite difficulties." For example, courage is impossible in a world without pain.

The Apostle Paul wrote: "Suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope."

We learn from our mistakes. Even Jesus 'learned obedience through suffering' so why should we be different?

Kreeft goes on to say that claims that people usually DON'T get away with evil are false. Oh the people get justice alright- maybe not right away, but they will.

Only AFTER our sufferings do people repent... We learn the hard way =\

C.S. Lewis says, "God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains. It is a megaphone to rouse a deaf world."

Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick... I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Every evil can have the opportunity for good to come out of it- and God brings out that good. WE brought about the suffering, but it's God who created the world that was good. "And if he did that and then just sat back and said, 'Well it's your fault after all'- although he'd be perfectly justified in doing that- I don't see how we could love him. The fact that he went beyond justice and quite incredibly took all the sufferings upon himself, makes him so winsome that the answer for suffering is how could you not love this being who went the extra mile, who practiced more than preached, who entered into our world, who suffered our pains, who offes himself to us in the midst of our sorrows? What more could he do?"

So the answer to suffering isn't an answer-

"It's the Answerer. It's Jesus himself. It's not a bunch of words, it's THE Word. It's not a tightly woven philosophical argument; it's a person. THE person. The answer to suffering cannot just be an abstract idea, because it isn't an abstract issue. It requires a person response. The answer must be someone, not just something, because the issue involves someone- 'God where are you?' "

He continues, "Jesus is there, sitting beside us in the lowest places of our lives. Are we broken? He was broken, like bread, for us. Are we despised? He was despised and rejected of men. Do we cry out that we can't take anymore? He was a man of sorrows and aquainted himself with grief. Do people betray us? He was sold out himself. Are our tenderest relationships broken? He too loved and was rejected. Do people turn from us? They hid their faces from him as from a leper. Does he decend into all of our hells? YES, he does... He not only rose from the dead, he changed the meaning of death and therefore of all the little deaths- the sufferings that anticipate death and make up parts of it... Every tear we shed becomes his tear. He may not wipe them away yet, but he will."

When a friend is sick, he wants more for you to sit with him rather than have an explanation. And that's exactly what God does. You may not feel all warm and fuzzy inside- otherwise you wouldn't be suffering heh- You don't have to "feel" him for him to be present, because God is always there.

Mad Kally · 07-21-2002, 05:00 PM

<groan>

Edited to add: Nevermind, I just saw your name change from Kally. Thanks.

[ July 21, 2002: Message edited by: Mad Kally ]

Jayhawker Soule · 07-21-2002, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kalestia:
This is a CHRISTIAN point of view on the existance of God and suffering.

And a particularly tedious one at that.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kalestia:
Don't attack me personally, cuz this has nothing to do with me.

Good. Thanks for sharing. Is there a "point of view" you wish to promote and defend?

Kalestia · 07-21-2002, 05:45 PM

Actually I wanna know responses to this one o.o;; I've had people say this kinda stuff, and I really don't know how to defend the athiest point of view...

Jayhawker Soule · 07-21-2002, 05:53 PM

OK. It's a silly, baseless, and rambling rationalization made necessary by its presumption of a Christian God. What do you believe?

Kalestia · 07-21-2002, 06:11 PM

*Grin* Well if it's from a Christian it WOULD be based on the idea that there is God. But that didn't answer MY question.

Philosoft · 07-21-2002, 07:14 PM

Any argument that has premises that presume an omipotent god did something one way because there was no other way he could have done it are doomed from the outset.

Kalestia · 07-21-2002, 07:25 PM

*blink* why's that?

Philosoft · 07-21-2002, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kalestia:
*blink* why's that?

Huh?

What does the word omnipotent mean?

Kalestia · 07-21-2002, 07:37 PM

Yes, but why is the idea not even considered?

07-21-2002, 04:49 PM	#1
Kalestia Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 24	Suffering and God... This is a CHRISTIAN point of view on the existance of God and suffering. Don't attack me personally, cuz this has nothing to do with me For I am simply offering a Christian's answer to the question. ~Does the presence of suffering mean the absence of God?~ "If someone thinks he can wrap up everything in a neat little package and put a fancy theological bow on it, go somewhere else." (A metaphor, and quotes, used by John Kreeft, PH.D.): Let's say you have three things- a bear, a trap, and a hunter. The bear is caught in the trap and the hunter wishes to help. In order to do that, the hunter must shoot the bear with drugs... But the bear thinks he's being attacked. Then the hunter has to push the bear's leg further into the trap in order to release it, and the bear would be convinced of his previous conclusion. But the bear is wrong. Now how do we know that we arent the bear and the hunter is not God? We wouldn't realize how God is helping us, because we are not God. FAITH: We have CLUES to follow for God's existance. If there were anything more or less than clues, we woudln't really be free to make a decision about God. "If there is no God, why is there good? If there is a God, why is there so much evil?" - Augustine If anything- such as suffering- can be judged as evil or simply "not good"- then we have some notion of an overall Good... "If there is no God, where did we get this standard of goodness by which we judge evil as evil?" EVOLUTION: If there isnt a creator, which means no moment of creaTION, then everything's resulted from evolution. "If there's no beginning or 1st cause, then the universe must have always existed. That means the universe has been evolving for an infinite period of time and, by now, everything should already be perfect. There would have been plenty of time for evolution to have finished and evil to have been vanquished..." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Christians believe in 5 things: ~God exists ~God is all-good ~God is all-powerful ~God is all-knowing ~Evil exists 1) God is all-powerful ~Can do everything meaningful and possible ~Cannot make himself cease to exist ~Cannot make good evil ~Cannot make mistakes -- You can't have free will without the possibility of evil-- God didn't CREATE evil, he created the POSSIBILITY of evil =] "The source of evil is not God's power, but mankind's freedom." LOVE: Real love must involve a choice- a choice to love or to hate. God created the world without sin, but with the POSSIBILITY of sin... It is US who's to blame for suffering because WE constantly choose TO sin... THe majority of our suffering in this world is due to the choices to kill, slander, be selfish, stray sexually, break promises, be recklace, etc. 2) God is all-knowing "God, if he is all-wise, knows not only the present but hte future. And he knows not only present good and evil but future good and evil. If his wisdom vastly exceeds ours, as the hunter's exceeds the bear's, it is at least possible... that a loving God could deliberately tolerate horrible things like starvation because he foresees that in the long run that more people will be better and happier than if he miraculously intervened. That's at least intellectually possile." EXAMPLE: Death of God on the cross...Nobody that time could see any real good in such a tragedy. But God saw that it'd result in the opening of heaven for humans. THe worst tragedy brought the most wonderful event in history. "And if it happens there- if the ultimate evil can result in the ultimate good- it can happen elsewhere, even in our individual lives. Elsewhere he simply says, 'Trust me.' " 3) God is all-good "Good" would be even MORE different between us and God than it is different between us and, say, animals. We don't always bail people out of their own, sometimes self-made problems. We don't to our child's homework for them. We don't wrap them in a protective bubble so they will never get hurt. "Sometimes being good is NOT being kind." Even the ancient Greeks thought the gods taught wisdom through suffering. "We know that moral character gets formed through hardship, through overcoming obstacles, through enduring despite difficulties." For example, courage is impossible in a world without pain. The Apostle Paul wrote: "Suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope." We learn from our mistakes. Even Jesus 'learned obedience through suffering' so why should we be different? Kreeft goes on to say that claims that people usually DON'T get away with evil are false. Oh the people get justice alright- maybe not right away, but they will. Only AFTER our sufferings do people repent... We learn the hard way =\ C.S. Lewis says, "God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains. It is a megaphone to rouse a deaf world." Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick... I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Every evil can have the opportunity for good to come out of it- and God brings out that good. WE brought about the suffering, but it's God who created the world that was good. "And if he did that and then just sat back and said, 'Well it's your fault after all'- although he'd be perfectly justified in doing that- I don't see how we could love him. The fact that he went beyond justice and quite incredibly took all the sufferings upon himself, makes him so winsome that the answer for suffering is how could you not love this being who went the extra mile, who practiced more than preached, who entered into our world, who suffered our pains, who offes himself to us in the midst of our sorrows? What more could he do?" So the answer to suffering isn't an answer- "It's the Answerer. It's Jesus himself. It's not a bunch of words, it's THE Word. It's not a tightly woven philosophical argument; it's a person. THE person. The answer to suffering cannot just be an abstract idea, because it isn't an abstract issue. It requires a person response. The answer must be someone, not just something, because the issue involves someone- 'God where are you?' " He continues, "Jesus is there, sitting beside us in the lowest places of our lives. Are we broken? He was broken, like bread, for us. Are we despised? He was despised and rejected of men. Do we cry out that we can't take anymore? He was a man of sorrows and aquainted himself with grief. Do people betray us? He was sold out himself. Are our tenderest relationships broken? He too loved and was rejected. Do people turn from us? They hid their faces from him as from a leper. Does he decend into all of our hells? YES, he does... He not only rose from the dead, he changed the meaning of death and therefore of all the little deaths- the sufferings that anticipate death and make up parts of it... Every tear we shed becomes his tear. He may not wipe them away yet, but he will." When a friend is sick, he wants more for you to sit with him rather than have an explanation. And that's exactly what God does. You may not feel all warm and fuzzy inside- otherwise you wouldn't be suffering heh- You don't have to "feel" him for him to be present, because God is always there.

07-21-2002, 05:00 PM	#2
Mad Kally Banned Join Date: May 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 3,764	<groan> Edited to add: Nevermind, I just saw your name change from Kally. Thanks. [ July 21, 2002: Message edited by: Mad Kally ]</p>

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07-21-2002, 05:45 PM	#4
Kalestia Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 24	Actually I wanna know responses to this one o.o;; I've had people say this kinda stuff, and I really don't know how to defend the athiest point of view...

07-21-2002, 05:53 PM	#5
Jayhawker Soule Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,777	OK. It's a silly, baseless, and rambling rationalization made necessary by its presumption of a Christian God. What do you believe?

07-21-2002, 06:11 PM	#6
Kalestia Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 24	Grin Well if it's from a Christian it WOULD be based on the idea that there is God. But that didn't answer MY question.

07-21-2002, 07:14 PM	#7
Philosoft Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Southeast of disorder Posts: 6,829	Any argument that has premises that presume an omipotent god did something one way because there was no other way he could have done it are doomed from the outset.

07-21-2002, 07:25 PM	#8
Kalestia Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 24	blink why's that?

07-21-2002, 07:37 PM	#10
Kalestia Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 24	Yes, but why is the idea not even considered?

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