chekmate

Well, I was playing Counter Stirke Yesterday, and I was feeling a little more abrasive then usual. I made my name "GodIsJustPretend." Anyway, I had a fundy tell me that he was real, and then we got into a mini-discussion about the existance of God. We exchanged e-mail addresses about it, and decided to talk about it more. He is convinced he will prove to me that God is real.

Anyway, as has been said a few times here, debating is not my strong point. I would like some help with this guy, and to know some things to point out. Here is Message Number 1:

So, we have the typical spelling, grammer, capitalization, and punctuation errors expected, but if you would, I think I can do a service to mankind if I can talk hiom out of his delusion. What do you guys suggest?

cloudyphiz

i bet he will. anyway, here's a link from evangelicals who are skeptical of the <a href="http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/d04.html" target="_blank">"god as the magik tooth fairy"</a> claims.

have fun kicking his ass on & off the cs battlefield

-gary

Tom Sawyer

I've had this discussion a few times before with religious people. The problem is that you're arguing from two different paradigms.

You're basing your arguments of logical conclusions - it can't be shown and the facts don't add up, so it isn't real.

He's basing his arguments on faith - I believe it's true and [insert name of random religion/spiritual leader here] tells me it's true, therfore it is true and any contradictions are merely a result us mankind being imperfect and unable to comprehend the Grand Design.

If you argue with him, 999 times out of 1000, you're just going to be wasting your breath. Don't take my word for it, though, respond to the guy and see what happens. Then you'll be able to talk about futile attempts to disillusion theists based on tested experience, not just faith in what other people are telling you will happen. after all, isn't that what secularism is about?

ansarthemystic

You tell that deluded fundy that regrdless of whether god exists or not Biblegod is not it!Biblegod is evil, and I can prove it! So if you need my help just let me know or refer to this new topic I am posting called "time to burn your Bibles!"

Dianna

I agree with Peteyh in that your dialogue with this guy will probably be a complete waste of time if your goal is to persuade him he is wrong. However, it would be beneficial for you in many ways. You will learn what makes this guy (and many believers) tick. And you migh gain a few new debating skills along the way.

I would approach him slow and easy. He's obviously not the sharpest tool in the shed. He looks like he'll get exasperated with you very quickly and resort to claiming you're hellspawn and there's no hope for you. So, take it easy on him or you'll lose him fast.

Point out inconsistencies almost as questions...make it appear that you aren't totally sure of what you're saying--that you're just exploring the ideas. That way, you don't rub him the wrong way while you make your points...points that might sink in one day.

1. The leap of faith. He is saying that you have to believe in god before god will perform miracles to show his presence to you. This brings up many questions, doesn't it? What are miracles for if not to help people make the leap of faith? Why do believers need miracles? If miracles prove god exists, why is the leap of faith necessary? Are you really supposed to accept these miracles as true when you don't even believe that god exists?

Is god really a dentist? I mean, he puts fillings in mouths to convince people he is real, right? But, once you've taken the leap of faith, you don't need convincing anymore. Why aren't these filling miracles showing up in medical journals?

Why are the miracles so mundane? Why doesn't god regrow severed limbs, bring the dead and embalmed back to life, write Jesus in the stars for all to see? And what about miracles professed by believers in other gods and religions? Is this guy Catholic? What about virgin mary sightings, her statues crying blood, etc. Does that mean Catholicism is true and he should convert?

2. Turning your life around. When someone believes in god any good things he does can be attributed to that belief. But that doesn't prove there is a god behind it. It only shows us the power of belief.

What about people who believe in Allah and change their lives? What about people who discover Paganism and turn their lives around? If making your life better after accepting god into your life is proof that god is real, then turning your life around after accepting Hinduism, is proof that Hinduism is real.

3. The big bang. Well, do you think a big bang made the whole universe? He says that is pretend. Just because he doesn't know how the universe came to be doesn't prove anything except his ignorance regarding the origins of the universe. So, if I were you, I'd not answer his question in the affirmative. I'd claim ignorance. You don't have to prove how the universe came about in order to disprove his god.

Maybe we just don't know yet. The point is, where is the evidence that god did it?

4. Pascal's Wager. Isn't there a whole article refuting that somewhere on the Sec Web? Turn Pascal's Wager back on him (nicely of course). What if Allah is the true god and Muhammed, his prophet? He's hedging his bets that he's chosen the correct god. Why would a loving and wise god punish a person who honestly doubts and reward a person who worships him because of the odds?

5. God doesn't send people to hell. That's a really slippery one. You can ask who created hell and for what purpose. But you might get the excuse that man's sin actually created hell.

You can try to explain that you don't hate god...that you can't hate an entity that you don't believe exists. And you can explain that anyone who would purposely choose hell would be insane.

Try not to assert anything about what you do believe. He'll try to turn the tables and have you defending yourself. Always resort to your lack of belief. You just don't believe it. Keep him trying to explain to you why he believes and why he thinks it's true. Maybe he'll discover the inconsistencies himself.

If nothing else, he'll amuse you.

Dianna.

Echo

Chekmate,

Why not just ask him to come here?

Then he can prove to LOTS of atheists that God is real...or at least attempt to.

Theli

Brandon the counterstrike playing Xian...

Who is dave?

First I would start off by asking him what kind of miracles he was reffering to.

Ehhh... miracle?
This is not an evidence for god, it's an evidence for godbelief.

Was the person in question possibly to the dentist while the pastor was praying?
God cannot stop a bunch of terrorists from blowing up the WorldTradeCenter, but he can fix a hole in someones tooth.

He should read some biology. And not just stand oblivious assuming something because it sounds pretty.

Now he gets emotional. You could ask him just what he knows about the big bang theory. And also, why the big bang could not create a blue sky and green grass.

Yes there is, and there was. The big bang had ALOT of power. So does the sun.

Do I see Pascals Wager rearing it's ugly head?
The problem with PW is that in practice it says that you should go with the religion that threaten you the most. The religion that can come up with the most painfull punishment for not joining it. In practice - it's a recruting tool, a sales-argument.

Is there something missing from this text?
This line doesn't make sense.

1. Atheists don't hate god. If an atheist were to hate god, he wouldn't be an atheist anymore.
2. It doesn't do much good to threaten an atheist with tales of hell, as the atheist don't believe in it.
3. It is not much of a choice, if you were to believe the hell-nonsense.

chekmate...

If you ever were to meet him on counterstrike again, be sure to blow his head of with a sniper-rifle for me.

[ July 18, 2002: Message edited by: Theli ]</p>

ansarthemystic

ditto

ansarthemystic

no that wouldn't be right!


Let him come on this forum so that i can metaphorically blow his head off with a sniper rifle

Jobar

Hi chekmate- I think that Dianna has given you some excellent points. Anytime you debate a theist- especially one with as little sense as this one shows- your chances of actually making a dent in the wall of willful ignorance with which he surrounds himself are not good. Use small words and simple concepts- explaining the big bang is a waste of your time. Think of it as trying to bring in a 25-lb. fish on a 20-lb. test fishing line!

I'm going to move this thread to our Misc. Religion Discussions board. This board, Existence of God(s), is for fairly specialized debate on the reality of ultimate beings.