Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RufusAtticus · 08-12-2002, 06:25 PM

<a href="http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=001549&p=" target="_blank">Baanng yourrr head!</a>

Quote:

Optional:
To say the O.T. espouses flat earth is ridiculous. You have to take obvious poetical/allegorical sayings (some of which we still use today) such as "4 corners of the earth" or "sunrise" and "sunset" or "ends of the earth". Give me a break. Guess my local newspaper and local t.v. weatherman are flat-earthers, then.

Abacus · 08-12-2002, 07:33 PM

The question begs to be asked:

"Why take the six-day creation from the O.T. to be literal, but not the flat earth?"

tgamble · 08-13-2002, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Abacus:
The question begs to be asked:

"Why take the six-day creation from the O.T. to be literal, but not the flat earth?"

Because there more people stupid enough to believe in a young earth than a flat one. Mustn't give the impression that the bible is anything but infallable and aboslutely correct on everything!

Kevin Dorner · 08-13-2002, 04:47 AM

<a href="http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm" target="_blank">http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm</a>

Tell Helen that she's right: the idea that the earth is flat and immobile was invented to discredit the Bible...

...by its authors.

[ August 13, 2002: Message edited by: Kevin Dorner ]

Koyaanisqatsi · 08-13-2002, 05:57 AM

Boy do I hate this one. People, attention!

Nobody ever thought the world was flat, especially not anybody from biblical days. That was a myth started by Washington Irving (the author of the Legend of Sleepy Hollow) in one of his essays about Columbus, because it made it seem like Columbus was more heroic than the mass murdering slave trader he actually was.

It also coincided nicely with the nineteenth century Western Civilization arrogance that "modern society" was the most intelligent and most progressive ever; that before they existed, all prior peoples were nothing but the most childish of primitives.

In other words, it's an urban myth.

And why, might you ask, is it a fact that nobody ever thought the earth was flat (other than, ironically, modern "flat earthers" who are in fact misinterpreting in a literal sense what was only colloquial)? BECAUSE YOU CAN SEE THE CURVATURE OF THE EARTH AT THE HORIZON AT ANY TIME.

Especially if you have ever sailed upon the ocean or traveled across a desert; two methods of travel that were constants for thousands of years in that region.

That and the fact that the MOON, the SUN and the STARS are all spheres, of course, proves definitively that, as fun as it may be, nobody could have ever thought the earth was flat.

Let's not forget that Democritus theorized the existence of atoms some five thousand years ago and the concept of "zero" came out of the Middle East. They may have been superstitious people and exceedingly gullible, apparently, granted, but they weren't blind.

(edited for dyslexia - Koy)

[ August 13, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]

beausoleil · 08-13-2002, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:
...or travelled across a dessert...

Sweet!

Koyaanisqatsi · 08-13-2002, 06:12 AM

See? No one's imune...

Kevin Dorner · 08-13-2002, 06:22 AM

The idea that the earth wasn't flat may have occurred after a particular culture had become well-travelled. But as advanced as the Egyptians and Babylonians were for their time, their theological cosmologies were both flat-earth because they were developed beforehand, and given that some like to think that theology is "divinely inspired" or "inerrant" there was no retroactive correction done.

So, yes, probably few Hebrews who had contact with cultures outside their own, or who had sufficient reasoning skills, thought that the earth was flat. But that does not establish that the authors of the bible didn't think so...

As well, the point of the original post isn't that Bible authors thought that earth was flat. It's that modern people who say that the Bible is inerrant and meant to be taken literally in every word for something like the Genesis story suddenly change their tune when presented with the passages in the Bible that support a flat earth and declare that they are not to be taken literally.

Oolon Colluphid · 08-13-2002, 06:23 AM

Koy: ...or travelled across a dessert...

Beausoliel: Sweet!

Oolon: Erm, that�d be sweat, no?

Randy · 08-13-2002, 06:57 AM

It is true that by the time of Columbus most educated people knew the world was not flat and furhter knew that the distance to Asia was just too great for Columbus to make it all the way but this does not mean that the Ancient Hebrews and others in the middle east did not think the earth was flat.

I think that if you actually travel in the desert the ancient Hebrews lived in you will find that you can’t see the curvature of the earth at the horizon at any time. I have been to Qumran and it seems to me that I could see higher ground in every direction from there. Certainly this it true at the Dead Sea. If the writes of the Bible really knew the earth was spherical and you could see its curvature they should have known that you couldn't see the top of a tree from anywhere on earth no matter how tall it was. While the medieval church accepted the Greek doctrine of a spherical earth there were Christians who disagreed. See for example the Christian Topography of Cosmas Indicopleustes
<a href="http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~awiesner/cosmas.html" target="_blank">http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~awiesner/cosmas.html</a>

Randy

[ August 13, 2002: Message edited by: Randy ]

08-13-2002, 04:47 AM	#4
Kevin Dorner Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 762	<a href="http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm" target="_blank">http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm</a> Tell Helen that she's right: the idea that the earth is flat and immobile was invented to discredit the Bible... ...by its authors. [ August 13, 2002: Message edited by: Kevin Dorner ]</p>

08-13-2002, 05:57 AM	#5
Koyaanisqatsi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Yes, I have dyslexia. Sue me. Posts: 6,508	Boy do I hate this one. People, attention! Nobody ever thought the world was flat, especially not anybody from biblical days. That was a myth started by Washington Irving (the author of the Legend of Sleepy Hollow) in one of his essays about Columbus, because it made it seem like Columbus was more heroic than the mass murdering slave trader he actually was. It also coincided nicely with the nineteenth century Western Civilization arrogance that "modern society" was the most intelligent and most progressive ever; that before they existed, all prior peoples were nothing but the most childish of primitives. In other words, it's an urban myth. And why, might you ask, is it a fact that nobody ever thought the earth was flat (other than, ironically, modern "flat earthers" who are in fact misinterpreting in a literal sense what was only colloquial)? BECAUSE YOU CAN SEE THE CURVATURE OF THE EARTH AT THE HORIZON AT ANY TIME. Especially if you have ever sailed upon the ocean or traveled across a desert; two methods of travel that were constants for thousands of years in that region. That and the fact that the MOON, the SUN and the STARS are all spheres, of course, proves definitively that, as fun as it may be, nobody could have ever thought the earth was flat. Let's not forget that Democritus theorized the existence of atoms some five thousand years ago and the concept of "zero" came out of the Middle East. They may have been superstitious people and exceedingly gullible, apparently, granted, but they weren't blind. (edited for dyslexia - Koy) [ August 13, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]</p>

08-13-2002, 06:57 AM	#10
Randy Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Cincinnati OH Posts: 27	It is true that by the time of Columbus most educated people knew the world was not flat and furhter knew that the distance to Asia was just too great for Columbus to make it all the way but this does not mean that the Ancient Hebrews and others in the middle east did not think the earth was flat. I think that if you actually travel in the desert the ancient Hebrews lived in you will find that you can’t see the curvature of the earth at the horizon at any time. I have been to Qumran and it seems to me that I could see higher ground in every direction from there. Certainly this it true at the Dead Sea. If the writes of the Bible really knew the earth was spherical and you could see its curvature they should have known that you couldn't see the top of a tree from anywhere on earth no matter how tall it was. While the medieval church accepted the Greek doctrine of a spherical earth there were Christians who disagreed. See for example the Christian Topography of Cosmas Indicopleustes <a href="http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~awiesner/cosmas.html" target="_blank">http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~awiesner/cosmas.html</a> Randy [ August 13, 2002: Message edited by: Randy ]</p>

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08-12-2002, 07:33 PM	#2
Abacus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: South Dakota Posts: 2,214	The question begs to be asked: "Why take the six-day creation from the O.T. to be literal, but not the flat earth?"

08-13-2002, 06:12 AM	#7
Koyaanisqatsi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Yes, I have dyslexia. Sue me. Posts: 6,508	See? No one's imune...

08-13-2002, 06:22 AM	#8
Kevin Dorner Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 762	The idea that the earth wasn't flat may have occurred after a particular culture had become well-travelled. But as advanced as the Egyptians and Babylonians were for their time, their theological cosmologies were both flat-earth because they were developed beforehand, and given that some like to think that theology is "divinely inspired" or "inerrant" there was no retroactive correction done. So, yes, probably few Hebrews who had contact with cultures outside their own, or who had sufficient reasoning skills, thought that the earth was flat. But that does not establish that the authors of the bible didn't think so... As well, the point of the original post isn't that Bible authors thought that earth was flat. It's that modern people who say that the Bible is inerrant and meant to be taken literally in every word for something like the Genesis story suddenly change their tune when presented with the passages in the Bible that support a flat earth and declare that they are not to be taken literally.

08-13-2002, 06:23 AM	#9
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	Koy: ...or travelled across a dessert... Beausoliel: Sweet! Oolon: Erm, that�d be sweat, no?

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