Vicar Philip

Day before yesterday she talked to one of her "church cronies" at our local flower shop. She unloaded to this woman, letting it all hang out, crying, etc. She then talked to another of her friends, same thing. She was very distant that evening.

Yesterday she was again cold and distant, would barely speak to me on the phone, replied to my e-mail without so much as an "I love you." I was pissed off.

So last night we duked it out again. This is fun! NOT. The bad thing is, the kids are getting more and more involved, whether they want to or not. I picked up my oldest son from a friend's house last night, and on the way home, he told me that if something did happen, he wanted to live with me. That really hurt and brought home to me that my kids are very upset, as well as my wife and I. This sucks.

I was attempting to set up a marriage counselor, any counselor, to see us, but the only person she'll agree to see is that pastor. I finally pinned him down last night and he agreed to see me the 22nd of this month. Not that I'm expecting much.

Get this: now she says I am an embarrassment because I don't believe. What a crock of shit!!!! I'd be MORE fuckin' embarrassed to believe in Noah's Ark and Creation, but apparently it doesn't faze her. We were talking about prayer, and I asked her what prayers of hers have come true. She mentioned a prayer for getting a better job. So then I brought up how pathetic it was that she thought a prayer for a better job would be answered, BUT all the thousands of prayers for starving children all around the world go totally unheeded. Still doesn't get through. She's fuckin' hard-core.

So, once again, we're at a tentative truce until I talk to the pastor. She asked me last night if I was "too far gone" for the pastor to help me. I told her I didn't know, which is not really true. Despite all the questions and reasons I've given her for my non-belief, it just doesn't matter. I'm just supposed to believe, damn the torpedoes, and damn logic and reason.

Feh!!!

HelenM

I remember my husband getting angry after talking to someone else. I hadn't changed in the interim, but the conversation left him angry, evidently...it's very disheartening, I know .

That's really neat that he feels that way about you even though I understand that in general, it is awful to see your kids suffering as well.

How about asking him if he thinks a marriage counselor is a good idea for the two of you? If he says it maybe she'll be willing to try it. I suppose she might only be willing to go to a Christian but if he/she is a good one then it still might be helpful - and I'm only speaking from my own experience here.

Anyway, perhaps the pastor will at least agree with you that religious differences are not the only problem the two of you have right now.

I think that's an unbelievably selfish attitude. I'm embarrassed just by what you've told me about her, that she calls herself a Christian and is behaving the way she is

She certainly does seem to have a strong faith in God. Even though she doesn't seem very skilled at taking what the Bible says about how she ought to behave and apply that to her relationship with you...

Well, I doubt it can make things worse between the two of you, to go see him. I don't see why you need to give detailed answers to questions like whether you are 'too far gone'.

If having an upcoming appointment enables the two of you to have a truce until then I'm sure that will make things more comfortable for the whole family. I'm glad you got a date out of him. I hope he'll keep it this time.

take care
Helen

seebs

You know, there are a lot of counselors out there who are Christians, but aren't judgemental or pushy about it. You might be able to convince her to go to such a counselor. Get recommendations.

Vicar Philip

Well, I'm going to wait and see how it goes with the pastor. He doesn't strike me as being particularly pushy, but I've never dealt with him on a purely religious issue before. The last time we went to him for counseling it had nothing to do with religion, so this will be uncharted waters.

I'm hoping for the best.

Thanks ever'body.

Never

Excerpt from Vicar Phillips post:
"I was attempting to set up a marriage counselor, any counselor, to see us, but the only person she'll agree to see is that pastor. I finally pinned him down last night and he agreed to see me the 22nd of this month. Not that I'm expecting much."

You "pinned him down" on the 7th and he agreed to see you on the 22nd. Good thing it wasn't urgent.
I've been following this thread since you started it. I can't even imagine being in this situation. If good thoughts count for anything, you've had mine.
I agree with those who suggest your wife see a physician. I would think that 2 jobs and 4 kids would have me stressed or depressed or something in no time, neverminds the other problems (and probably contributing to them). I have 1job and 2 kids and my husband and I have trouble keeping up. (BTW, if my husband helped around the house as much as you do, I'd be thrilled)
Good Luck.

BadBadBad

It seems to me that one of the things going on here is the church, not just religious belief in general. If she weren't involved with the church, she wouldn't be so embarassed. She could believe what she wants. She could share her beliefs with her kids. She could pray to God all she wants. If it weren't for the church, I don't know why religion would be much of a topic between the two of you. She's not embarassed in front of "God," she's embarassed in front of the cronies at church. If you guys lived on a remote back woods farm with no neighbors, I don't see this being such a big issue. It seems to me that the real issue is shame in front of the church community.

I think you guys have three choices. One, your wife can continue with church on her own. She's dealing with this right now, and it's the crux of your problem. Despite how she terms it, the problem she's dealing with is the shame of non-conformity in an invasive social environment where conformity is the entire basis of the social community and where shame and fear are the keys to maintaining conformity. Without you, that church life is going to be full of shame and fear indefinitely. She has to decide whether she can live her church life enduring that and still be happy, or whether she really needs to divorce you so she can show up with a new born-again hubby shining brightly in the light of God! Many people do live the church life on their own. Look around at church. There are many many women without hubbies. How many are as miserable as your wife is choosing to be?

Two, she can recognize that you're an atheist and will never convert back to church life. To be happy with you, she should drop from church. She drops church, she drops the shame. For example, let's say she's white living a life in the old days of the south in KKK land. Suddenly, she and the community find out in a very public way your secret of mixed ancestry. Now, can she and you continue to live in KKK land and be truly happy, or should you move out of KKK land? If you guys stay in church land, this isn't going away. It's going to be a conflict every Sunday and Wednesday night, and every time she see's her crony church friends.

Church is the devisive issue here. If she drops church, the issue immediately shifts to the one on one relationship between the two of you. Can you two be happy with that? The issue immediately shifts from the sole issue of religion to the normal issues of any relationship. Of the people in this world who claim to be christian, how many live the full family, born again, surrounded by church lifestyle? What percentage go to church on a weekly or even monthly basis? Why does she need this to be happy? Why do her desires for this fundie lifestyle justify all the pain, grief, and lifetime change in lifestyle that a divorce will cause to you, her, kids, grandkids, etc?

Three, get a divorce. How long are you and your family going to be drug through the muck and misery of this christian shame and fear mongering? You are a vile and despicable man with nothing more for her than the warmth of your heathenistic body. You're doomed to burn in hell for eternity. To say the least, that's not much basis for a rewarding relationship. Why wait? Why doesn't she just start looking for her new fundie hubby now?

I knew a guy whose wife told him she didn't love him after 12-15 years marriage. No particular reason. You're just not my knight in shining armor. She gleafully admitted she never loved him, stab, stab, stab. While they struggled with this for a couple of years, she had an affair with their neighbor, the father of their daughter's boyfriend. When confronted with that, she separated and moved out. She soon realized that after the affair, moving out significantly decreased her case for custody of their kids. Throughout it all, he held onto hope for maintaining their family. He let her move back in. She told everyone in her family she hadn't changed and had no intent on reconcilliation. This was just a convenient living arrangement designed to enable her to take custody of his children. He was told by her family that was the deal, but with blind hope let her move in anyway. After all this, he finally saw the light and divorced her. The point is she needs to make up her mind and so do you. You don't deserve living in this same kind of divorce limbo.

Darren, I think you need to start reminding her that she's not the only one in this relationship. You don't have control over this. You haven't done anything to hurt her. You can't make ammends to her in any way. You're not ever going to be this great guy indefinitely while she goes around treating you like a rotting dead body. That kind of attitude from her to you is eventually going to bring out the worst in you, then she'll divorce you because you have become the rotten vile person she is accusing you of being now. She has to decide to get over this and move on. I think you need to let her know that this has limits.

I know in my relationship, as this issue of church and religion has churned on hard for now going on a year, my resolve to arbitrarily stay in this is fading. I'm not going to deal with being treated like a scumbag forever. If she wants to hold us over the precipice of divorce forever forget it. I'm not living that way. I have expectations and needs too. I have grievances too.

I've let her know that I too can see our relationship as hopeless. I too can look through our relationship to life beyond marriage. I too can see through the tragedy of divorce for all concerned. I too can see through to a life much better than the misery we've lived through.

I can see two different ways to get there. Pick up my shit and split, or put this religious crap behind us and start living our life today like we love each other. Not we'll see, I'll think about it, not someday, I mean today, I mean right now. I want a committment on it now! I've gone as far as I'm going on my own to fix this. You either join with me 100% or we're done. We've had that discussion and I'm serious. She didn't say fine get the hell out, she listened to me. She's been playing a major power game. The game is up and she knows it. She either needs to walk the walk of divorce, or admit that's not where she wants to go and get off this shit. If she doesn't want to go there, then she better pay attention to what it takes to make a marriage work. I can assure you, that doesn't have anything to do with church.

That conversation was very emotional but very sobering for both of us. Drawing a line in the sand doesn't mean it's the final line. It doesn't put the ball entirely in her court either. She's got to play ball though. She's agreed to wake up and deal with her responsibility to our relationship. That doesn't give me a free ticket to leave it all up to her. I've got a tough job to be the best I can be to show her it's worthwhile to continue trying. So far, so good, and we'll see where it takes us.

How do you think your wife would react to this confrontation? How much longer can you tolerate this situation before it affects your hope for a future together and before you become the vile and despicable person that she expects?

I'm interested in your answers and your reaction to all this, particularly my take on the church aspect. A lot of what you're going through is so similar to my situation. If anyone else wants to continue with my plight, we probably ought to dig up my old thread or just e-mail me.

Good luck Darren, particularly on your meeting with the pastor!

Vicar Philip

Brett,

Did you say your situation has dragged on for over a YEAR?

Ouch.

I've only had this problem for about three months, but it seems like a damn year.

I see what you mean about the power trip. Like I've said before, I've always been pretty passive, and have a submissive personality. Except when it comes to this. I have to stand up for this, it's something I know in my heart and non-existent soul is TRUE. I've told her it's not like this is some short-lived whim; I have spent countless hours researching and investigating the false claims and empty promises of Christianity.

I do think you're right about the church thing. Image means a lot to my wife, and of course going to church is a big part of that image. We went a couple weeks ago so my oldest son could be in their Wonderful Christmas Play (TM), and so many people came up to me saying "Oh, we're so glad you're back." I know they mean well, but my heart just isn't there anymore.

I think she's really re-considering going back to our church, but at least now she's stopped with the "I'm leaving" and instead is incredulous that I am not planning on attending with them. I will drop them off and pick them up, but that's it.

I have brought it up to her several times that my opinion DOES count, NOT just hers. That statement is greeted with dead silence. On this matter (religion), she says, only her opinion counts. I don't have to tell you what I think about that.

At the moment, we're kind of at a truce. Although I know it could flare back up at any moment, especially after I visit the pastor and don't come home [sarcasm]filled with Love for the Lord.[/sarcasm]

Brett, you might also update your thread if you haven't. I'd be curious to see what is going on in your struggle.

Thanks for all the advice, Brett, and never too.

Vicar

Ted Hoffman

I do not mean to hijack the thread but since we are talking marriage counseling, the other day, my fiancee said we might need to go for (christian) counseling before we get married (as per christian weddings).
I told her I have no problem so long as I dont have to pretend that I am a christian and that even if we wed in church, I will not pretend I am a christian.

Will it be possible for a counsellor to counsel us or Vicar and his wife for that matter - knowing I and/or vicar do not beleive in scripture? Helen (or anyone whi has a good idea about this), could you give me and Vicar here an idea about how christian counselors go about their work?

Do they go like : " Paul 2:12 (I know there is no book of Paul) says: 'love your wife as christ loved the church...' "

Or do they use logic and common sense?

Because I have a fear that anyone counseling based on what he already knows that one among the couple disagrees must feel very ineffective as he counsels ...

Or do they just turn a blind eye to that and plod on with the counseling work? Wouldnt it be tantamount to singing to an audience that is made up of deaf people and people who can hear?

And if they use logic and common sense, wouldnt that usurp the authority of the scripture or even undercut God's wisdom?

HelenM

Intensity, I answered on a new thread in SL&S, since it was an answer to you and not VP. (Although he's welcome to read it, of course )

Helen

HelenM

VP, I have a suggestion - how about e-mailing the pastor and telling him ahead of time that your wife has all her hopes pinned on this session reconverting you and she's been threatening to leave if you don't reconvert; whereas you want to save the marriage and are concerned that her current lifestyle is putting an amount of stress on her that she's unable to handle. And you're hoping he can help save the marriage. So you have somewhat different goals...

Perhaps it would help him know what approach to take if he knew that ahead of time. Maybe in e-mail you can say things you'd rather not say at the session in front of your wife.

It's just a suggestion. I don't know how much you've told him. He might not realize the seriousness of your situation if he doesn't know she's been threatening divorce.

take care
Helen