Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The Admiral · 09-27-2002, 04:09 AM

Early Non-Christian Witnesses to Jesus Christ. by F.F.Bruce.

Has anyone here read this book?

I am in a continuing debate with a Lutheran minister and we are each reading books suggested by the other. This is one of his recommendations but I am having a hard time finding it.

The Admiral

Peter Kirby · 09-27-2002, 05:19 PM

It is quite possible that this person has in mind Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament, which is an actual book written by F.F. Bruce. I was able to find it at a college library and read most of it.

Main Author: Bruce, F. F. (Frederick Fyvie),
Title: Jesus and Christian origins outside the New Testament,
Publisher: Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans 1974.
Call Number: BT297 .B74

It may be expensive on the used market, so I suggest some sort of library loan.

best,
Peter Kirby

The Admiral · 09-28-2002, 04:45 AM

Peter

Thank you. That is the title I had in mind. I'll ask Robb Marks if he can locate it . He has found a few toughies for me.

The Admiral

Plebe · 09-29-2002, 10:59 AM

<a href="http://www.probe.org/docs/ancient.html" target="_blank">http://www.probe.org/docs/ancient.html</a>
I found the above which I would be interested in seeing Peter Kirby's critique of the Babylonian Talmud composed between 70 and 100 AD reference to Jesus as outlined in this article since there was much forgery going on in that day <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_wheless/forgery_in_christianity/index.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_wheless/forgery_in_christianity/index.shtml</a> Forgery in Christianity
I was searching to see if I could find that book online so all you would have to do is put it on disk and read it/print it as needed, here are the results of the search but so far I do not find it as a complete online text that is free to read.
Hope this little bit helps, let us know how your debate goes
<a href="http://www.alltheweb.com/search?query=Jesus+Christian+Origins+Outside+the+N ew+Testament+f.f.+bruce&cat=web&type=all" target="_blank">http://www.alltheweb.com/search?query=Jesus+Christian+Origins+Outside+the+N ew+Testament+f.f.+bruce&cat=web&type=all</a>

Plebe · 09-29-2002, 11:20 AM

While this does not answer your question about that book Admiral, I think it is a good link for reference about Historicity [Peter Kirby, what do you think about this site?]
<a href="http://www.christianism.com/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.christianism.com/index.html</a> Years of Research and Conclusions represented.

Toto · 09-29-2002, 11:32 AM

Plebe - could you put your URL's inside a hyperlink so they don't stretch the page? Ask for help if you can't figure out how to do that.

Thanks

Plebe · 09-29-2002, 11:42 AM

TOTO, how do I do that? Thanks for the help!

Peter Kirby · 09-29-2002, 04:04 PM

Plebe writes: I found the above which I would be interested in seeing Peter Kirby's critique of the Babylonian Talmud composed between 70 and 100 AD reference to Jesus as outlined in this article since there was much forgery going on in that day

You seem to have misread the web page at the url listed, which states on the period of composition: "There are only a few clear references to Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud, a collection of Jewish rabbinical writings compiled between approximately A.D. 70-500. Given this time frame, it is naturally supposed that earlier references to Jesus are more likely to be historically reliable than later ones. In the case of the Talmud, the earliest period of compilation occurred between A.D. 70-200."

That is, the web page says "70-200," not the figure of 70 to 100 that you indicate. The web site depends on Habermas. Habermas states that the period from 70 to 200 is known as the Tannaitic period. Habermas also writes, "This material was organized according to subject matter by Rabbi Akiba before his death in AD 135. His work was then revised by his student, Rabbi Meir. The project was completed by Rabbi Judah and is konwn as the Mishnah." (_The Historical Jesus_, p. 202) The Talmud before the early third century is believed to have existed only in oral form. This means that some traditions in the Talmud may come from well into the second century.

My guess is that this passage derives not necessarily from the actual events but from Jewish and Christian dialogue & polemics. Notice that in the Christian Gospels, Jesus is given a hasty and highly illegal trial in the middle of the night in which false witnesses testify against him. In the Jewish response to the Christian story, Jesus is given a full forty day period in which witnesses could have stepped forward to defend him. I wouldn't make too much of the fact that the language is that of hanging, as even in the New Testament we find the phrase that Jesus was hanged on a tree. The point that Pilate is not involved at all, while modern reconstruction tends to regard Pilate as the prime mover in the earliest Christian memory, tends to indicate that the Jewish story most likely does not depend on Jewish witnesses but rather was formed as a polemical adaptation of the Christian story. The passage also agrees with John against the synoptics in the relationship of the day of death to the day of the Passover, but too much cannot be made of this because scholars are divided as to whether John or the synoptics are to be preferred here.

Robert Stein discusses these passages in Jesus the Messiah.

Quote:

The most important rabbinic writing is the Talmud. It contains two parts: the Mishna and the Gemara. The Mishna consists of oral traditions that circulated in Judaism from about 200 B.C. to A.D. 200 (compare Mk 7:1-13). They were, according to tradition, written down in Hebrew by Rabbi Judah. (Additional traditions, which did not find their way into the Mishna, were later incorporated into a work called the Tosefta.) Around these traditions arose various commentaries called Gemara, which were written in Aramaic. Together, the Mishna and Gemara make up the Talmud.

The Gemara, which arose in Palestine, was combined with the Mishna sometime between A.D. 350 and 400 to make up what is known as the Palestinian (or Jerusalem) Talmud (PT). In Babylon a Gemara was added to the Mishna approximately A.D. 500. Together they make up the better-known and much larger Babylonian Talmud (BT). The Talmud conssts of sixty-three "Tractates" arranged in six "Orders." The main problem invovled in evaluating Talmuding materials is to separate later accretions from earlier materials. All too often it appears that the Talmudic materials witness not to what actually took place in a previous period but to an idealized rendering of how things should have taken place if the later rabbinic understanding of the law had been in force.

The Talmud contains several references to Jesus. The most famous is found in _b. Sanhedrin_ 43a (BT):

On the eve of Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover! - Ulla retorted: Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defence could be made? Was he not a _Mesith_ [enticer], concerning him Scripture says, _Neither shalt though spare, neither shalt thou conceal him?_ With Yeshu however it was different, for he was connected with the government for royalty [i.e., influential]. Our Rabbis taught: Yeshu had five disciples, Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni, and Todah.

We find a number of parallels between this tradition and the Gospel accounts. Jesus' death is associated with Passover and occurs on the eve of the Passover (compare Jn 19:13). Indirectly his miracle-working activity is witnessed to by the claim that he worked sorcery (compare Mk 3:22, where Jesus' miracles are attributed to a demonic source). He is accused of apostasy, and although the penalty for this is "stoning," Jesus was not stoned but "hanged," that is, crucified. No mention is made of the Roman part in the trial of Jesus. But that is not surprising in that the concern of the Mishna is to explain the Jewish law, and in this repsect the role of Rome was irrelevant. There is present an acknowledgment that the leadership of Israel was involved in Jesus' death. Mention is made of Jesus' having had disciples, but only five are listed, and their names to do not make a great deal of sense (Matthai = Matthew; Nakai = Nicodemus?; Nezer = Nazarene?: Buni = Boanerges, the Sons of Thunder?; Todah = Thaddaeus?).

The question must be raised whether this material comes from oral traditions of those who were themselves eyewitnesses of the tiral or who had access to eyewitness reports of what took place. If so, these traditions would be extremely valuable. Most of the material, however, arose from later Jewish-Christian debates and appars to be apologetic in naure. for instance, the statement that for forty days a search was made for witnesses on Jesus' behalf looks like an apologetic on the part of rabbinic Judaism against the Christian claim that Jesus did not receive a fair trial. Thus we find that whereas this material is most helpful in the investigation of Judaism and the early church during the second through fifth centuries, it is less valuable for the study of the life of Jesus.

Several other refernces in the Talmud have been seen as referring to Jesus. But they are for the most part problematic in that they do not mention Jesus directly. The Jewish avoidance of using the name of heretics could explain this. The following passage may be counterapologetics to the Christian claim of the virginal conception.

Balaam also the son of Beor, the soothsayer, [did the children of Israel slay with the word]. A soothsayer? But he was a prophet! - R. Johanan said: At first he was a prophet, but subsequently a soothsayer. R. Papa observed: That is what men say, "She who was the descendant of princes and governors, played the harlot with carpenters." (b. Sanhedrin 106a; compare also 106b)

Said R. Simeon B. 'Azzai: I found a roll of geneaological records in Jerusalem, and therein was written, "so-and-so is a bastard [having been born] from [a forbidden union with] a married woman," which confirms the vew of R. Joshua (b. Yebamot 49a)

This also brings to mind the claim of a man named Celsus as recorded in Origin (c. 248): "Let us return, however, to the words put into the mouth of the Jew, where the mother of Jesus is described as having been turned out by the carpenter who was betrothed to her, as she had been convicted of adultery and had a child by a certain soldier named Panthera" (Contra Celsum 1.32). It is evident that this reference is an apologetic by the neo-platonist Celsus against the Christian claim that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a virgin when she conceived him. There may even be a pun here. Whereas the Christians claimed that Jesus was conceived and born of a virgin (parthenos, the Greek term for virgin), opponents said, "No, not of a parthenos but of Panthera." By a simple reversal of the _r_ and _n_ they "discovered" the real father of Jesus and argued that Jesuss was illegitimate.

The references given above from the Tractates _Sanhedrin_ and _Yebamot_ may very well represent a similar attack on the Christian claim. Several arguments favor this interpretation. For one, although the name of the woman and child are not given, it is assumed that people would know to whom these sayings referred. Jesus would certainly have been a prime candidate in people's minds. Second, the reference to a carpenter fits well with the fact that Joseph and Jesus were carpeenters, even though it is not the husband of Mary but the adulterer who is so described. It may also be that the reference to Mary's being a descendant of princes and governors may be an allusion to the Gospel geneaologies in which we find such royal figures as David, Solomon and Zerubabbel (Mt 1:1-17; Lk 3:23-27. It has also been argued that the name Balaam was seen by Jews as a type for Jesus. If so, the above passages are probably references to Jesus created as counterpropaganda against Christian claims. They are, however, secondary in nature and the result of later Jewish-Christian debate rather than contemporary, eyewitness reports."

Several passages dealing with the treatment of heresy have also been
[34]
suggested as possible allusions to Jesus even though his name is not present.

b. Berakot: "May our company not be like that of Elisha, from which issued Gehazi. _In our bread places_: may we produce no son or pupil who disgraces himself in public." One manuscript (M) adds to the end of this saying, "like the Nazarene."

b. Sanhedrin 103a. "Another interpretation: 'There shall no evil befall thee' - though wilt not be affrighted by nightmares and dread thoughts; 'neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling' - thou will not have a son or a disciple who publicly burns his food." The expression "to burn food" refers to accepting or propounding heresy.

Other possible allusions to Jesus or his teachings may be found in b. Sabbat; 116b (a possible reference to Mt 5:17) and _b. Sanhedrin 107b, where one manuscript tradition refers to "Jesus the Nazarene [who] practised magic and led Israel astray."

The key question that arises involves the origin of these rabbinic references. The value of these passages would be greatly enhanced if they originated from contemporaries of Jesus who were eyewitnesses of the events they were reporting. This would be true even though they presented the side of Jesus' opponents. On several occasions, however, aspects of these accounts seem to be due less to eyewitness reports than to later Jewish intereaction with the teachings and claims of the early church. This is especially true with respect for such matters as the claim that a forty-day search for witnesses on Jesus' behalf preceded his trial and, if the accounts refer to Jesus, to his brith being due not to virginal conception but to adultery on the part of his mother. As a result, the rabbinic materials are primarily valuable for providing information concerning second-, third- and fourth-century Judaism, and even here they must be read critically. Like the pagan sources, however, they provide little information for the historian seeking to construct a life of Jesus.

Plebe writes: Peter Kirby, what do you think about this site?

I haven't read it.

best,
Peter Kirby

{fix formatting - Toto}

Toto · 09-29-2002, 09:00 PM

Plebe: the easy way to hyperlink is to click on the URL button below the window you type your message into. It will give you a box. Insert the URL into the box, starting with "http://". After you hit enter, it will give you another box. Type a descriptive phrase there. After you hit enter again, you will have a properly formatted hyperlink.

Otherwise, you need to type "" followed by the name, followed by "".

I have redone the URL's from your post. If you hit reply with quote, you can see exactly what it looks like.

Originally posted by Plebe:

<a href="http://www.probe.org/docs/ancient.html" target="_blank">Ancient Doc</a>

. . .
<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_wheless/forgery_in_christianity/index.shtml" target="_blank">Joseph Wheless: Forgery in Christianity</a> Forgery in Christianity

. . .
<a href="http://www.alltheweb.com/search?query=Jesus+Christian+Origins+Outside+the+N ew+Testament+f.f.+bruce&cat=web&type=all" target="_blank">search for Jesus Christian Origins Outside the New Testament</a>

[ September 29, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

The Admiral · 10-05-2002, 06:01 AM

Peter, Plebe or anyone else interested.

I still haven't found the F.F. Bruce book but it isn't urgent. The minister gave me a list of four and #1 was "Scaling the Secular City" by J.P. Moreland. I found it at B&N and am about 100 pages into it. It's a bit heavy for my meager level of education but I'll manage. If any one has read it I would be interested in your comments. Two words which occur to me as I read it are obfuscation and sophistry. Guess I should check the dictionary and see what they mean.

The Admiral

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09-27-2002, 04:09 AM	#1
The Admiral Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Racine, Wi. USA Posts: 768	The Admiral Early Non-Christian Witnesses to Jesus Christ. by F.F.Bruce. Has anyone here read this book? I am in a continuing debate with a Lutheran minister and we are each reading books suggested by the other. This is one of his recommendations but I am having a hard time finding it. The Admiral

09-27-2002, 05:19 PM	#2
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	It is quite possible that this person has in mind Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament, which is an actual book written by F.F. Bruce. I was able to find it at a college library and read most of it. Main Author: Bruce, F. F. (Frederick Fyvie), Title: Jesus and Christian origins outside the New Testament, Publisher: Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans 1974. Call Number: BT297 .B74 It may be expensive on the used market, so I suggest some sort of library loan. best, Peter Kirby

09-28-2002, 04:45 AM	#3
The Admiral Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Racine, Wi. USA Posts: 768	Peter Thank you. That is the title I had in mind. I'll ask Robb Marks if he can locate it . He has found a few toughies for me. The Admiral

09-29-2002, 10:59 AM	#4
Plebe Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Contra Costa County Posts: 168	<a href="http://www.probe.org/docs/ancient.html" target="_blank">http://www.probe.org/docs/ancient.html</a> I found the above which I would be interested in seeing Peter Kirby's critique of the Babylonian Talmud composed between 70 and 100 AD reference to Jesus as outlined in this article since there was much forgery going on in that day <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_wheless/forgery_in_christianity/index.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_wheless/forgery_in_christianity/index.shtml</a> Forgery in Christianity I was searching to see if I could find that book online so all you would have to do is put it on disk and read it/print it as needed, here are the results of the search but so far I do not find it as a complete online text that is free to read. Hope this little bit helps, let us know how your debate goes <a href="http://www.alltheweb.com/search?query=Jesus+Christian+Origins+Outside+the+N ew+Testament+f.f.+bruce&cat=web&type=all" target="_blank">http://www.alltheweb.com/search?query=Jesus+Christian+Origins+Outside+the+N ew+Testament+f.f.+bruce&cat=web&type=all</a>

09-29-2002, 11:20 AM	#5
Plebe Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Contra Costa County Posts: 168	While this does not answer your question about that book Admiral, I think it is a good link for reference about Historicity [Peter Kirby, what do you think about this site?] <a href="http://www.christianism.com/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.christianism.com/index.html</a> Years of Research and Conclusions represented.

09-29-2002, 11:32 AM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Plebe - could you put your URL's inside a hyperlink so they don't stretch the page? Ask for help if you can't figure out how to do that. Thanks

09-29-2002, 11:42 AM	#7
Plebe Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Contra Costa County Posts: 168	TOTO, how do I do that? Thanks for the help!

09-29-2002, 09:00 PM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Plebe: the easy way to hyperlink is to click on the URL button below the window you type your message into. It will give you a box. Insert the URL into the box, starting with "http://". After you hit enter, it will give you another box. Type a descriptive phrase there. After you hit enter again, you will have a properly formatted hyperlink. Otherwise, you need to type "" followed by the name, followed by "". I have redone the URL's from your post. If you hit reply with quote, you can see exactly what it looks like. Originally posted by Plebe: <a href="http://www.probe.org/docs/ancient.html" target="_blank">Ancient Doc</a> . . . <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_wheless/forgery_in_christianity/index.shtml" target="_blank">Joseph Wheless: Forgery in Christianity</a> Forgery in Christianity . . . <a href="http://www.alltheweb.com/search?query=Jesus+Christian+Origins+Outside+the+N ew+Testament+f.f.+bruce&cat=web&type=all" target="_blank">search for Jesus Christian Origins Outside the New Testament</a> [ September 29, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

10-05-2002, 06:01 AM	#10
The Admiral Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Racine, Wi. USA Posts: 768	Peter, Plebe or anyone else interested. I still haven't found the F.F. Bruce book but it isn't urgent. The minister gave me a list of four and #1 was "Scaling the Secular City" by J.P. Moreland. I found it at B&N and am about 100 pages into it. It's a bit heavy for my meager level of education but I'll manage. If any one has read it I would be interested in your comments. Two words which occur to me as I read it are obfuscation and sophistry. Guess I should check the dictionary and see what they mean. The Admiral

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