Pseudonymph

You obviously don't know what does. Dilusions such as what you describe could very well indicate a problem...but is that grounds for a blanket statement such as the one you made?

Using your logic, I could just as easily claim that atheists have a god-complex, what with their scientific ambitions and all.(sarcasm here folks)

You have failed to provide any conclusive evidence at the even the most atomic level, to suggest that beliefs in a god interfere with a normal, productive, and healthy member of society.

Untill you can do so, consider the matter unchanged.

[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: SirenSpeak ]</p>

Living Dead Chipmunk

Schu: Pull out a DSM-IV and tick off the symptoms. There are two in particular that are absolutely required before a diagnosis can be made.

Not to mention that you're not even halfway qualified to make ANY diagnosis on ANYONE.

agapeo

Hi Joel!
I appreciate the suggestion (and it's awful tempting ) but as I indicated earlier I have time constraints which limit the amount of time I spend on the Net. I am nevertheless quite interested in this discussion with you and so I am giving most of what little time I have to this exchange. Let's just see what we can do here. K?
No need to apologize for it seems you likewise have limited time and I can understand where you may need to prune some comments which not central to the discussion.
Where? I haven't seen them yet. They seem to be preoccupied with other issues. But on a serious note I do realize that I'm posting on an atheist's Web site. I should be doing this <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> but I'm quite comfortable.
Well, I could give ya the standard Christian response to that and say "My God and I . . ." but I'd better not.

Anyways, I'm not ignoring your very extensive latest post but I've simply run out of time for now and will have to return to them later.

emphryio

So if you see someone jumps off a building while flapping their arms really fast, you would say they aren't necessarily mentally ill?

Apparently I don't know what it really means. How is "brain dysfunction" different from illogical thought processes? (If it isn't any different than the line between mentally healthy and mentally ill is really quite hazy?)

Well I guess I am trying to back it up. Or at least explore ideas about it. Is it still inappropiate? Do I need to get more PC?

Apparently I have a very different idea about the concept "mentally ill". Based on my concept of it being related to some degree of illogic, then depending on where you place the hazy line of mental health/mental illness, virtually everyone could be considered mentally ill.

I wouldn't be offended at all if someone here said that atheists are mentally ill. If they gave any logical thought process to back it up, I would probably examine the possibility.

Now if they specifically singled me out as mentally ill and gave nothing beyond an assertion, that would be offensive.

But obviously you two (or three if you count Agapeo but I wasn't because from what I've seen talking to him is like <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> ) have a different idea of mental illness than me. Sorry, I truly haven't meant to offend or "be superior" or whatever.

And I'm sorry Joel, I'm getting in the way of your thread.

agapeo

:lol Take 2 aspirins and you'll feel better in the morning. Trust me! It'll work for your headache.

HelenM

That was what I was hoping for. When it comes to something as serious as diagnosing mental illness a dictionary definition falls way short of the specific information needed

Helen

[ November 26, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>

Living Dead Chipmunk

Ok, deal. As soon as you start giving a logical thought process to back it up, I'll start considering it.

Perhaps if you took a college course or two in psychology, you might know.

Do you believe that two rational people, given the same evidence, can come to different conclusions? Or is every conclusion that differs from yours a sign of mental illness?

It's not hazy at all. Two distinct observable symptoms separate any mentally ill person from a mentally healthy one. The rest of the symptoms are just qualifiers.

No, you need to get more knowledge. You've shown to have no passable idea as to how a clinical diagnosis works, and you obviously have no qualifications to be attempting to make such. You've presented nothing but vague analogies and misrepresented definitions to "back it up" and you expect us to take you seriously.

At this rate, I could just as easily use your own logic to call homosexuals mentally ill. They engage in weird behavior after all. And illogical thinking. Only illogical people would think it's a good idea to stick a penis there. Why? Because I say so. They reached a different conclusion than me with the same evidence, therefore by my newly aquired binary thinking, ONE of us has to be insane, and it's not me.

Yes. Different from the idea of people that go to college and med school for a decade to learn how to diagnose and treat mental illness. Explain to me again why I should consider you an authority?

Two symptoms. Two symptoms.

How on earth can ANYONE make such statements without even doing cursory research first? This field has been rigorously tested and redefined over the last 50 years, and you think you were born knowing everything you need to know, so much so that you don't even have to pick up a book and read a line or two? And you call theists crazy?

And what you've been doing is different... how, exactly?

Yes, it comes from having actually had discussions with mental health practitioners, and having read the pertinent parts of the DSM-IV, and having an understanding that the only person even remotely capable of making any sort of diagnosis has, at the very least, a master's degree in the subject. You apparently disagree with that. Which, by my brand new binary thinking, makes one of us insane. And it's not me.

HelenM

How did we get to here?

I thought the question was, whether people who believe in God are mentally ill.

To my knowledge, people who believe in God aren't flapping their arms and jumping off tall buildings. If you know otherwise please provide some supporting information on that.

It's quite different. What if someone has been taught to think illogically? Do you see 'logic' as innate? I don't.

I think you're missing the point. Mental illness is much more clearly defined than you are acknowledging. Your original defense depended on what other people understand by 'mentally ill' when they hear themselves accused of being mentally ill, because you were saying the hope was to provoke them into reconsidering their belief system. I.e. you expected a certain reaction. You wouldn't get that reaction if you redefined mentally ill to be "Your thinking is illogical".

Anyway if you mean "your thinking is illogical" why say "You're mentally ill" which only confuses the issue since your hearers would not know that you are departing from what is normally understood by 'mentally ill'.

True - but mental illness has been defined already. Why are you thinking there's value in redefining it? And as I said, if you do redefine it so virtually everyone now is considered 'mentally ill' then it loses any meaning and your argument about saying it to provoke people into some change in belief system falls apart, because what is meaningless won't provoke anyone to anything.

That's because you are erroneously equating "illogical thinking" with "mentally ill". I probably would have said nothing had the original statement been "Christians don't think logically".

Wasn't that what happened on this thread?

Well, thanks for the apology. My definition is the normally accepted one. I don't understand why you'd depart from it, saying 'mentally ill' when you mean 'thinking illogically' when it would be much simpler and clearer to say 'thinking illogically'.

If you want to accuse Christians of illogical thinking and provide supporting information to demonstrate how you came to that conclusion that's fine with me. That doesn't require going to a list of symptoms of mental illness as defined by the medical professionals. But if you are going to say Christians are mentally ill, I'd like to see you show why you think that, using DSM-IV.

Helen

[ November 26, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>

emphryio

Living Dead Chipmunk

It's pointless talking to someone who purposely grossly misunderstands and suggests taking college classes before they have a right to an opinion.

HelenM

I'm trying to understand your definition of "mental illness".

I have to respectfully say that christians are notorious for evading areas of discussion in exactly this manner. You can see Agapeo doing the same thing in this thread. It strikes me as dishonest and I don't enjoy spending my freetime associating with such.

Logic neither comes naturally nor unnaturally, it has nothing to do with the concept of natural/innate at all.

But you can't be taught to think illogically. If someone tells you that 2+2=3. Then until you consistently see that this isn't true, it is perfectly logically to believe that 2+2=3.


And through all of this you never do bother to define "mentally ill". Thanks, very fruitful conversation.


For starters: Please show me where I specifically singled out any individuals and accused them of being mentally ill.

I'm not going to bother repeatedly asking what the "normally accepted one" is.


Because "thinking illogically" means nothing to most christians. For example, you think a person can be taught to think illogically!

I don't even know what "DSM-IV" is.

Based on the emotional manner in which the two of you are replying; evading, telling me I should take college classes or demonstrate expertise in this area before I'm allowed to state my ideas, I guess I should just shut up, (while I still, of course, think that christianity probably is a form of mental illness.)

So you got me to shut up at least.

Does that make you feel better?

Rhetorical question, I'm moving on to more fruitful threads. This is silly.

HelenM

Ummm...I don't recall that you ever asked me to define it. I said I accept the usual definitions. I didn't realize you'd find that frustratingly little information.

Ok, then I'll go further...you can see lists of symptoms on <a href="http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_index.php?idx=26&PHPSESSID=bf5bfbcedb18931c91 767a254f1d88dd" target="_blank">The Mental Help Net</a> that are taken from DSM-IV.

Just to see, I went to the <a href="http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=515" target="_blank">Bipolar Disorder Symptoms page</a> and noticed this on there:

And as with nearly all mental disorder diagnoses, the symptoms must cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

I hope you can see that this goes way beyond 'illogical thinking'.

Feel free to read that site if you want to know how mental illness is defined and what symptoms would lead to a diagnosis. Or you can search for other mental health sites on the Internet. They aren't hard to find. But if you want me to look them up for you just say and I can do so.

take care
Helen