Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Corgan Sow · 12-02-2002, 07:10 PM

I think I can call myself stupid for failing to understand the rationale of apologetics...William L. Craig, to even Cornelius Van Til. Thei arguments are getting banal, and I keep knocking myself on all those ad hoc explanations to:

- Bible atrocities.

- Biblical errancy.

- Creationism vs Evolutionism.

So...if there is any experienced debaters here...mind explaning? AAARRRRGGGHHHHH!!!

happyboy · 12-03-2002, 03:32 AM

because, despite all the horrific things he's done (as part of the holy trinity), and that he'll damn us to hell if we dare don't love him as much as he loves us, and that he made some of us apparently with no other intention than to go to hell, he loves us.

so there. that's why christians love jesus.

happyboy, savior of the creationists

Sarpedon · 12-03-2002, 04:39 AM

They believe because they have been taught to believe.

They believe because they are afraid.

agapeo · 12-03-2002, 05:37 AM

Quote:

and that he'll damn us to hell if we dare don't love him as much as he loves us,

Well then, save a spot for me in hell 'cause I'm quite certain that I don't love Him as much as He loves me.

And I would seriously question any Christian who would claim as such.

Quote:

and that he made some of us apparently with no other intention than to go to hell, he loves us.

Ya know, I often wonder why people claim that God made them. Somehow or another I always thought my father and mother made me as they were having a little fun.

If I don't like the fact that I exist they're the ones I should blame.

Quote:

so there. that's why christians love jesus.

Yea, right.

Quote:

happyboy, savior of the creationists

Is there a statue of you available? I have a little more room left on the dashboard of my car.

agapeo · 12-03-2002, 05:41 AM

Quote:

They believe because they have been taught to believe.

And the same is not true for you? Actually isn't it more accurate that we choose to believe or disbelieve what we're taught? No one as far as I know needs to learn or be taught to believe. It comes naturally.

Quote:

They believe because they are afraid.

I'm shaking in my boots. My pants are wet from peeing in them all the time 'cause I'm so full of fear.

The Admiral · 12-03-2002, 06:02 AM

<<<And the same is not true for you? Actually isn't it more accurate that we choose to believe or disbelieve what we're taught? No one as far as I know needs to learn or be taught to believe. It comes naturally.>>>

No Agapeo, the same is not true for me and many others. My poor dear mother made a desparate attempt to being me up to be a devout Methodist. She suceeded with my 3 sisters and one brother. I never believed.

The Admiral

The Admiral · 12-03-2002, 06:06 AM

On the basis of my personal experience with close friend and aquaintences and relatives, most of whom described themselves as Christians, they just never think about it, they refuse to discuss it and are not at all interested in what I think.

I would be willing to bet that most Atheists have read more and thought more about religion than most believers.

The Admiral

agapeo · 12-03-2002, 06:28 AM

Hi Admiral

Quote:

No Agapeo, the same is not true for me and many others.

If you say so. But it sure does puzzle me how that is so.

Quote:

My poor dear mother made a desparate attempt to being me up to be a devout Methodist. She suceeded with my 3 sisters and one brother. I never believed.

I assume that your dear mother taught you the same that she taught your 3 sisters. Whereas they chose to accept/believe what they were taught you chose not to believe it. Is that correct? Now, isn't it the case that you believed that what your dear mother taught you and your sisters wasn't true?

Jamie_L · 12-03-2002, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by agapeo:
Now, isn't it the case that you believed that what your dear mother taught you and your sisters wasn't true?

This is actually an important point. None of us atheists really disbelieve God. We disbelieve stories of God. We've all been presented with stories (mostly quite fanciful) of this God fellow, and those stories just don't have any ring of truth to them. Like people with stories about alien abductions or Elvis sightings.

Jamie

jmunson · 12-03-2002, 08:45 AM

There are many ways to come about a "belief".

Most believers simply have not had the courage to pick through the logic and the arguments. Its not that they are extremely stupid, its just that most of them eather havnt had access to divergent ideas and/or fear questioning the beleifs that they have been told are essential to their aviodance of eternatl torture.

Most of the people in the above group have no real knowlege of how to find "truth", or how to deternine false and invalid logical arguments.

They simply FEEL like believeing, they are comfortable believing. THey believe that: Their eternal soul is at stake, they will not have a moral outlook, their group of people will ostrazize them....basiacally, they would have to do a major restructuring of their worldview. A mans ego doent like to be upset.

Most that "look" at the evidence are simply using selective perception and relying on poor logical processes to determine their reasons for belive. But it doenst really come down to their search of "truth", even though they may think it does. What it really comes down to, is protecting a worldview that APPEARS to be the foundation of 1) Everything good for THEM! and 2) Everything good for the rest of the world.

But it just comes down to poor logical processes ,fear, selective perception and ego. Not in order of importance.

But this goes for all human thought, especially areas such as Politics and Government. The same forces are at work.

12-02-2002, 07:10 PM	#1
Corgan Sow Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 1,537	Let's recap. Why people still believes Jesus? I think I can call myself stupid for failing to understand the rationale of apologetics...William L. Craig, to even Cornelius Van Til. Thei arguments are getting banal, and I keep knocking myself on all those ad hoc explanations to: - Bible atrocities. - Biblical errancy. - Creationism vs Evolutionism. So...if there is any experienced debaters here...mind explaning? AAARRRRGGGHHHHH!!! <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

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12-03-2002, 03:32 AM	#2
happyboy Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on the border between here and there, WV Posts: 373	because, despite all the horrific things he's done (as part of the holy trinity), and that he'll damn us to hell if we dare don't love him as much as he loves us, and that he made some of us apparently with no other intention than to go to hell, he loves us. so there. that's why christians love jesus. happyboy, savior of the creationists

12-03-2002, 04:39 AM	#3
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	They believe because they have been taught to believe. They believe because they are afraid.

12-03-2002, 06:02 AM	#6
The Admiral Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Racine, Wi. USA Posts: 768	<<<And the same is not true for you? Actually isn't it more accurate that we choose to believe or disbelieve what we're taught? No one as far as I know needs to learn or be taught to believe. It comes naturally.>>> No Agapeo, the same is not true for me and many others. My poor dear mother made a desparate attempt to being me up to be a devout Methodist. She suceeded with my 3 sisters and one brother. I never believed. The Admiral

12-03-2002, 06:06 AM	#7
The Admiral Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Racine, Wi. USA Posts: 768	On the basis of my personal experience with close friend and aquaintences and relatives, most of whom described themselves as Christians, they just never think about it, they refuse to discuss it and are not at all interested in what I think. I would be willing to bet that most Atheists have read more and thought more about religion than most believers. The Admiral

12-03-2002, 08:45 AM	#10
jmunson New Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Dakota Posts: 1	There are many ways to come about a "belief". Most believers simply have not had the courage to pick through the logic and the arguments. Its not that they are extremely stupid, its just that most of them eather havnt had access to divergent ideas and/or fear questioning the beleifs that they have been told are essential to their aviodance of eternatl torture. Most of the people in the above group have no real knowlege of how to find "truth", or how to deternine false and invalid logical arguments. They simply FEEL like believeing, they are comfortable believing. THey believe that: Their eternal soul is at stake, they will not have a moral outlook, their group of people will ostrazize them....basiacally, they would have to do a major restructuring of their worldview. A mans ego doent like to be upset. Most that "look" at the evidence are simply using selective perception and relying on poor logical processes to determine their reasons for belive. But it doenst really come down to their search of "truth", even though they may think it does. What it really comes down to, is protecting a worldview that APPEARS to be the foundation of 1) Everything good for THEM! and 2) Everything good for the rest of the world. But it just comes down to poor logical processes ,fear, selective perception and ego. Not in order of importance. But this goes for all human thought, especially areas such as Politics and Government. The same forces are at work.

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