Freethought & Rationalism Archive

fatherphil · 04-21-2003, 08:50 PM

if there was no resurrection. this according to paul.

so you atheists, give us your pity. that would be the biblical response.

Bree · 04-21-2003, 08:59 PM

Forgive my ignorance, but I'm not quite sure what kind of discussion you hoped would stem from your OP. Would you care to clarify?

GeoTheo · 04-21-2003, 09:07 PM

I've thought about this. What do you think Paul was driving at?
Do you think he meant because of all the persecution Christians were facing at the time of writing or because We can't have drunken orgies? I'm being serious.
I think a Christian Life is a good life in it's own right. I don't miss the alcahol and promiscous sex. (Not that I am saying this is what all non-believers live for)
So I think he must have been refering to the persecution, but that's just my opinion.

fatherphil · 04-21-2003, 09:57 PM

anything fresh would be good, bree.

geo, it could pertain to undergoing persecution for nothing. but perhaps, assuming the timelessness of paul's writings, it may have to do with living under delusion would be a pitiful state of existence.

beth · 04-22-2003, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fatherphil
anything fresh would be good, bree.

geo, it could pertain to undergoing persecution for nothing. but perhaps, assuming the timelessness of paul's writings, it may have to do with living under delusion would be a pitiful state of existence.

Phil, I don't pity you, Helen M., GeoTheo, my husband, or other Christians if their faith enriches their lives. I pity Christians when they are a slave to their faith, like I was. It saddens me to think that the Christians died for naught under great persecution, but a lot of other people from other faiths died for their convictions. As far as delusion goes, I do think some of it is delusional, but I wouldn't say your experience is. You've always struck me as one of the most level-headed Christians. I was delusional and it was horrible. I pity those who are so involved that they see the visions and dream the dreams that I did and who believe these things to be truth or revelation.

Rhea · 04-22-2003, 05:58 AM

Ditto what Blondegoddess said.

I would not have pity for someone who is happily living a good life.

Someone who feels instructed to beat their children, or accept a beating from their spouse or parents, or who feels compelled to call others evil and corrupt for only beliving differently yet acting the same, someone who fills thier lives with sneers and scowls at the lack of righteousness, someone who mourns for years or decades that their children will burn in a fiery pit...

Those people I pity.

The poeple who see love around them, who want to give and see giving in others, who love unconditionally, who respect others and love even their imperfections...

Those people hardly deserve pity.

...

Paul, now. Yeah, Paul I pity. What a sucky life he had, hating women and homosexuals and heathens in the name of Jesus. Hating his very life. I do pity him.

...

p.s. care to quote a reference on this one? I'm not familiar with the verse.

Celsus · 04-22-2003, 06:05 AM

Don't have the reference offhand right now, but I'm thinking along the lines of, "If Christ has not risen then our faith is in vain." I might be wrong, but why that should make us pity Christians (for all their inyourface obnoxiousness that the majority are famous for) is completely beyond me. A better word that comes to mind is derision, but saying that would just be rude.

Joel

wildernesse · 04-22-2003, 07:22 AM

Quote:

12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation has been in vain and your faith has been in vain. 15We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ�whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. 17If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have died in Christ have perished. 19If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

1 Corinthians 15:12-19 (NRSV)

--tibac

Rhea · 04-22-2003, 07:49 AM

Quote:

1 Corinthians 15:12-19 (NRSV)
12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead?
13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised;
14and if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation has been in vain and your faith has been in vain.
15We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ�whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised.
17If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
18Then those also who have died in Christ have perished.
19If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

Woh.
That's a brain-bender. Let me see if I can understand it.

12If we said it's true, how can you say it's not true?
13 If it's not true, then it's not true!
14 And if it's not true, then by saying it was true we wasted our time and yours!
15 And we're liars if we say it's true and it's not!
16 For if it's not true, then it's not true!
17 And if it's not true, then we're wasting our time!
18 And the people before us were wasting their time, too!
19 Because if we had hope in its truth, and there's no actual payback, then we really wasted a lot and should be pitied.

It's interesting that all he offers as proof is "we said so". Interseting to me.

Nevertheless, I still answer with my above comments. "I only pity you if your belief made you miserable to yourself or others." And I still see that Paul's faith did exactly that to him. So yeah, he is to be pitied, IMO.

Also intersting is further down in the chapter where he talks about people being baptized in behalf of people who are already dead.
Never hear that one talked about. Interesting.

wildernesse · 04-22-2003, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rhea

Quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Corinthians 15:12-19 (NRSV)
12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead?
13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised;
14and if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation has been in vain and your faith has been in vain.
15We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ�whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised.
17If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
18Then those also who have died in Christ have perished.
19If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Woh.
That's a brain-bender. Let me see if I can understand it.

12If we said it's true, how can you say it's not true?
13 If it's not true, then it's not true!
14 And if it's not true, then by saying it was true we wasted our time and yours!
15 And we're liars if we say it's true and it's not!
16 For if it's not true, then it's not true!
17 And if it's not true, then we're wasting our time!
18 And the people before us were wasting their time, too!
19 Because if we had hope in its truth, and there's no actual payback, then we really wasted a lot and should be pitied.

After reading the original text out loud, and then Rhea's paraphrase, all I could think was. . . .MOJO-JOJO is that You? hahaha.

Quote:

Also intersting is further down in the chapter where he talks about people being baptized in behalf of people who are already dead.
Never hear that one talked about. Interesting.

Actually, I think Mormons do baptize people for the dead--that's why they're so big on geneology. They go back and "baptize" your ancestors into the church, or something. It's important to them, so that's why they have records of everyone and their uncle.

--tibac

04-21-2003, 08:50 PM	#1
fatherphil Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: burbank Posts: 758	pity the Christian if there was no resurrection. this according to paul. so you atheists, give us your pity. that would be the biblical response.

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04-21-2003, 08:59 PM	#2
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	Forgive my ignorance, but I'm not quite sure what kind of discussion you hoped would stem from your OP. Would you care to clarify?

04-21-2003, 09:07 PM	#3
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	I've thought about this. What do you think Paul was driving at? Do you think he meant because of all the persecution Christians were facing at the time of writing or because We can't have drunken orgies? I'm being serious. I think a Christian Life is a good life in it's own right. I don't miss the alcahol and promiscous sex. (Not that I am saying this is what all non-believers live for) So I think he must have been refering to the persecution, but that's just my opinion.

04-21-2003, 09:57 PM	#4
fatherphil Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: burbank Posts: 758	anything fresh would be good, bree. geo, it could pertain to undergoing persecution for nothing. but perhaps, assuming the timelessness of paul's writings, it may have to do with living under delusion would be a pitiful state of existence.

04-22-2003, 05:58 AM	#6
Rhea Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Recluse Posts: 9,040	Ditto what Blondegoddess said. I would not have pity for someone who is happily living a good life. Someone who feels instructed to beat their children, or accept a beating from their spouse or parents, or who feels compelled to call others evil and corrupt for only beliving differently yet acting the same, someone who fills thier lives with sneers and scowls at the lack of righteousness, someone who mourns for years or decades that their children will burn in a fiery pit... Those people I pity. The poeple who see love around them, who want to give and see giving in others, who love unconditionally, who respect others and love even their imperfections... Those people hardly deserve pity. ... Paul, now. Yeah, Paul I pity. What a sucky life he had, hating women and homosexuals and heathens in the name of Jesus. Hating his very life. I do pity him. ... p.s. care to quote a reference on this one? I'm not familiar with the verse.

04-22-2003, 06:05 AM	#7
Celsus Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Singapore Posts: 2,875	Don't have the reference offhand right now, but I'm thinking along the lines of, "If Christ has not risen then our faith is in vain." I might be wrong, but why that should make us pity Christians (for all their inyourface obnoxiousness that the majority are famous for) is completely beyond me. A better word that comes to mind is derision, but saying that would just be rude. Joel

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