Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David M. Payne · 11-21-2002, 11:52 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zwi:
Well David M Payne,

I didn't get an answer out of my last question anything to my liking.

Sorry about that, I'll try harder next time.

Have read your short story about the Jewish Defense League on the link and your story of bob.

What short story about the "Jewish Defense League" is that? Is it the one linked below, "The Wailing Pool"? It's not exactly about the JDL zwi.

I am still upset by a strong agnostic idea

Why? I'm not, I kind of like it.

Let me propose this to you

There cannot exist a being with the commonly presumed attributes of God

I agree with you here, and made that pretty clear in "Bob." The concept of God as currently presented is absurd.

YOU see I believe that god does not exist, and indeed cannot exist. This puts the strong agnostic viewpoint, as I understand it, out of court.

First off, I get to define my beliefs in agnosticism. I am no different than a strong atheist when it comes to the Abrahamic God. As for the possibility of other gods, I don't close the door completely, in or out of court. You may agree or not with these thoughts, that�s OK with me.
In my mind there is zero chance of the Abrahamic God existing, for such a God as described in the Talmud, Bible and Kran, ops sorry, Qu'ran, would make no sense at all, and a perfect being would have to make some sort of sense. Theists of course disagree with this view. As I've said before, I like the chances of the atheist/agnostic becoming prevalent over time until religion is reduced to an insignificant force, unable to wreak the havoc it has for all of our recorded history. Of course there is the danger that religion will try to destroy humanity in its self-proclaimed apocalypse on the way out of power. That�s why religion scares me, not for myself personally, but for the survival of humanity its self. When all the real power of these religions is given over to an imaginary being, you have a situation ripe for big problems, and we have had them through out the reign of God and religion.
As for the possibility of other gods; in this universe there are billions of stars, many older and almost certainly able to form life. So it is possible in my mind, to conceive of a being who has conquered space travel, and that would be to us as we are to lower life forms. It is possible that such a being was our creator, and was as advanced over humanity as humanity is over the simplest life forms on earth. So, would they be like gods to us? Maybe. If that reality ever happens, then we will get to answer that question.
I do write science fiction too, Zwi, and speculated a little with that idea in <a href="http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=105" target="_blank">The Wailing Pool.</a> I accept the possibility, no mater how remote, that this could be the case for us, we could have been created by a superior being as some sort of experiment, as in my story linked above. Is it serious speculation? No, its just saying lets not close the door on that, because unlike the Abrahamic God, other, very advanced life forms in the universe are a real possibility. In fact humanity is about to cross one of the barriers to being like gods ourselves. There are some scientists getting ready right now to create a single cell organism. When we cross that barrier and create life, we put the nail in the coffin of the idea of God being the only creator, and become gods to what we create ourselves. Or not. Who knows how it'll turn out. That�s what's so interesting about our life to me, all the possibilities. I think we evolved from lower life forms, and as they unravel the DNA code we may find some positive links to our past evolution, we'll see what happens. Who knows for sure if we are alone in the universe, or are even the most advanced species around here? The answer is out there, somewhere.

Any comments welcome,
zwi.

You got them, hope you liked them this time around, and if not, there's always next time. I can't see most things in terms of black and white zwi, there are too many colors out there. And your welcome.
David

zwi · 11-22-2002, 10:16 AM

David Payne

I got my answers this time, thanks very much I believe there is a loop in your arguments, a kind of petitio principii

You said inter alia

destroy humanity in its self-proclaimed apocalypse on the way out of power. That�s why religion scares me, not for myself personally, but for the survival of humanity its self.

Thats very well put. I hadnt thought it out so clearly.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic as someone said. Our founders would seem like Gods to us

But where did those technologists come from? It must be the old Theme and Variations yet again

Perhaps they came upon an earlier Earth and adapted our its first life. Mayhap they adjusted their own genome to be cross fertile with us....

Have you ever read Last and First Men by Olaf Stapledon? Published in the twenties, subsequent genera of men adapted themselves for the foreseeable calamaties of their future including the sun going red giant

I think I did misread your Pool story that you thought that the events of the New Testament reflected the acts of this advanced race, and that Jesus/God/whatever could really have been true, in which case you wre a thaumaturgic Christian

Con mi maz sincera admiracion

Zwi

David M. Payne · 11-23-2002, 11:10 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zwi:
[QB]David Payne

I got my answers this time, thanks very much I believe there is a loop in your arguments, a kind of petitio principii

You said inter alia

destroy humanity in its self-proclaimed apocalypse on the way out of power. That�s why religion scares me, not for myself personally, but for the survival of humanity its self.

Thats very well put. I hadnt thought it out so clearly.

thank you

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic as someone said. Our founders would seem like Gods to us

If it were the case, then yes I believe they would seem so to most people.

But where did those technologists come from? It must be the old Theme and Variations yet again

I have no answer for that, other than perhaps if they exist, they just evolved like us, but much earlier in time.

Perhaps they came upon an earlier Earth and adapted our its first life. Mayhap they adjusted their own genome to be cross fertile with us....

Perhaps.

Have you ever read Last and First Men by Olaf Stapledon? Published in the twenties, subsequent genera of men adapted themselves for the foreseeable calamaties of their future including the sun going red giant

No

I think I did misread your Pool story that you thought that the events of the New Testament reflected the acts of this advanced race, and that Jesus/God/whatever could really have been true, in which case you wre a thaumaturgic Christian

It was just one of my stories. Some idle speculation with a little pointed criticism of what it might take to get humanity focused on changing our ways.

Con mi maz sincera admiracion

Thanks, I think? Is this Italian?

Zwi

David

David M. Payne · 11-26-2002, 06:11 PM

From Earl Doherty in the feedback forum today. Made my day.

Quote:

Originally posted by "Earl Doherty":
<strong>COMMENT ON DAVID PAYNE'S "THE STORY OF BOB"
<a href="http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=236" target="_blank">http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=236</a>

Parody and satire can be a most effective way of pricking the balloon of irrational doctrine. Reaching the mind of the believer is a daunting task at the best of times, but exposing absurdity is often achieved by presenting it in the context of a different kind of absurdity--one designed to force re-examination of those beliefs. Religious dogma is usually an insult to the thinking person's intelligence, whether it be creationism, original sin through eating an apple, or the claim that the appearance of one man at a single time and place is the sole source of universal salvation. Parody and satire are themselves a form of reciprocal insult to jolt the believer into seeing his ideas in a different light and bring home the irrationality of it all. Clever pieces of parody like The Story of Bob (and they have to be clever, and well-written) can sometimes do more to effect that jolt than even a good academic book on the subject. The truth is, we need both.
I enjoyed David's wit and ingenious repetition of motifs, and I applaud his treatment of the "Isms"--those modern bedevilments of atheism which the believer likes to throw in our faces. Nicely neutralized and deflated in a couple of paragraphs. And yes, the "call to Bob." Too bad it weren't that easy, we could all go home and do something else. It would all be so funny, if it didn't reveal the truly tragic situation the human race has managed to mire itself in as part of a process of evolution that really has no intelligent mind behind it. Rather, evolution, in its own mindless wisdom, has thrown up its own intelligence to create the needed direction. In David's Story of Bob, that force is "the freethinkers."
Perhaps the Secular Web should set up a contest for more good pieces of parody. They're a challenge to do properly, with just the right amount of wit and satire without overstepping the bounds of good tact and taste. Whatever happened to the great tradition of satirists, from Juvenal to Jonathan Swift? We certainly need them today in modern America.

Earl Doherty
Author of "The Jesus Puzzle" and "Challenging the Verdict: A Cross-Examination of Lee Strobel's 'The Case for Christ'"
and The Jesus Puzzle website: <a href="http://human.st/jesuspuzzle" target="_blank">http://human.st/jesuspuzzle</a></strong>

David M. Payne · 12-27-2002, 01:38 AM

For the folks at RT also.

David

hal9000 · 01-02-2003, 08:48 PM

Here is the Bob thread there, at rotten tomatoes.

Tristan Scott · 01-10-2003, 11:36 AM

This reminds me of this:

http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/cla...ogyIzness.html

David M. Payne · 01-12-2003, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tristan Scott
This reminds me of this:

http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/cla...ogyIzness.html

I had heard of the church of Bob before I wrote this piece, but that isn't why I picked that name. I picked the name Bob because it fit the ending of my story, and was three letters, just like God. I like your link though. The more we satirize the God myth, the more minds we may pry free of this God/religion myth addiction.

David

"God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still sucks them in today, so free your mind, and your body will follow!"

Arrogancy · 01-16-2003, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar
[mod hat on]
When David first posted his tale of Bob here, I seriously considered moving it to the Humor forum. It is in fact a satire, and while it is a lampoon of the Christian (or Abrahamic) God I thought it a bit frivolous for EoG.

Actually, the Story of Bob does not mirror the God of The Bible. It combines random philosophical ideals of a God, the "pagan" doctrines that were absorbed into the Constantine era Church of "eternal fire" and omniscience, and blatant errors and mistakes as pointed out earlier by myself and others.

In other words, The Story of Bob creates its own God to mock, instead of using the documented God of the Bible as a target. Because of the fact that it fails in mocking the God of the Bible, the later points about religion are irrelevant. The crux of the satire is errant, so the whole satire falls apart.

This was pointed out in detail here: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/forum/...hreadid=194615 when David went on his copy/paste spree at Rotten Tomatoes. The only defense that could be come up with when the errors in comparison were pointed out, point by point were "it's a satire, so it doesn't matter."

Sapient · 01-16-2003, 12:45 PM

David,

I liked it, very good work. Can it be redistributed with credit given to you?

01-16-2003, 12:45 PM	#90
Sapient Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 127	David... David, I liked it, very good work. Can it be redistributed with credit given to you?

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11-21-2002, 11:52 PM	#81
David M. Payne Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The land of chain smoking, bible thumping, holy ro Posts: 1,248	[QUOTE]Originally posted by zwi: Well David M Payne, I didn't get an answer out of my last question anything to my liking. Sorry about that, I'll try harder next time. Have read your short story about the Jewish Defense League on the link and your story of bob. What short story about the "Jewish Defense League" is that? Is it the one linked below, "The Wailing Pool"? It's not exactly about the JDL zwi. I am still upset by a strong agnostic idea Why? I'm not, I kind of like it. Let me propose this to you There cannot exist a being with the commonly presumed attributes of God I agree with you here, and made that pretty clear in "Bob." The concept of God as currently presented is absurd. YOU see I believe that god does not exist, and indeed cannot exist. This puts the strong agnostic viewpoint, as I understand it, out of court. First off, I get to define my beliefs in agnosticism. I am no different than a strong atheist when it comes to the Abrahamic God. As for the possibility of other gods, I don't close the door completely, in or out of court. You may agree or not with these thoughts, that�s OK with me. In my mind there is zero chance of the Abrahamic God existing, for such a God as described in the Talmud, Bible and Kran, ops sorry, Qu'ran, would make no sense at all, and a perfect being would have to make some sort of sense. Theists of course disagree with this view. As I've said before, I like the chances of the atheist/agnostic becoming prevalent over time until religion is reduced to an insignificant force, unable to wreak the havoc it has for all of our recorded history. Of course there is the danger that religion will try to destroy humanity in its self-proclaimed apocalypse on the way out of power. That�s why religion scares me, not for myself personally, but for the survival of humanity its self. When all the real power of these religions is given over to an imaginary being, you have a situation ripe for big problems, and we have had them through out the reign of God and religion. As for the possibility of other gods; in this universe there are billions of stars, many older and almost certainly able to form life. So it is possible in my mind, to conceive of a being who has conquered space travel, and that would be to us as we are to lower life forms. It is possible that such a being was our creator, and was as advanced over humanity as humanity is over the simplest life forms on earth. So, would they be like gods to us? Maybe. If that reality ever happens, then we will get to answer that question. I do write science fiction too, Zwi, and speculated a little with that idea in <a href="http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=105" target="_blank">The Wailing Pool.</a> I accept the possibility, no mater how remote, that this could be the case for us, we could have been created by a superior being as some sort of experiment, as in my story linked above. Is it serious speculation? No, its just saying lets not close the door on that, because unlike the Abrahamic God, other, very advanced life forms in the universe are a real possibility. In fact humanity is about to cross one of the barriers to being like gods ourselves. There are some scientists getting ready right now to create a single cell organism. When we cross that barrier and create life, we put the nail in the coffin of the idea of God being the only creator, and become gods to what we create ourselves. Or not. Who knows how it'll turn out. That�s what's so interesting about our life to me, all the possibilities. I think we evolved from lower life forms, and as they unravel the DNA code we may find some positive links to our past evolution, we'll see what happens. Who knows for sure if we are alone in the universe, or are even the most advanced species around here? The answer is out there, somewhere. Any comments welcome, zwi. You got them, hope you liked them this time around, and if not, there's always next time. I can't see most things in terms of black and white zwi, there are too many colors out there. And your welcome. David

11-22-2002, 10:16 AM	#82
zwi Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sarasota FL Posts: 60	David Payne I got my answers this time, thanks very much I believe there is a loop in your arguments, a kind of petitio principii You said inter alia destroy humanity in its self-proclaimed apocalypse on the way out of power. That�s why religion scares me, not for myself personally, but for the survival of humanity its self. Thats very well put. I hadnt thought it out so clearly. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic as someone said. Our founders would seem like Gods to us But where did those technologists come from? It must be the old Theme and Variations yet again Perhaps they came upon an earlier Earth and adapted our its first life. Mayhap they adjusted their own genome to be cross fertile with us.... Have you ever read Last and First Men by Olaf Stapledon? Published in the twenties, subsequent genera of men adapted themselves for the foreseeable calamaties of their future including the sun going red giant I think I did misread your Pool story that you thought that the events of the New Testament reflected the acts of this advanced race, and that Jesus/God/whatever could really have been true, in which case you wre a thaumaturgic Christian Con mi maz sincera admiracion Zwi

11-23-2002, 11:10 PM	#83
David M. Payne Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The land of chain smoking, bible thumping, holy ro Posts: 1,248	[QUOTE]Originally posted by zwi: [QB]David Payne I got my answers this time, thanks very much I believe there is a loop in your arguments, a kind of petitio principii You said inter alia destroy humanity in its self-proclaimed apocalypse on the way out of power. That�s why religion scares me, not for myself personally, but for the survival of humanity its self. Thats very well put. I hadnt thought it out so clearly. thank you Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic as someone said. Our founders would seem like Gods to us If it were the case, then yes I believe they would seem so to most people. But where did those technologists come from? It must be the old Theme and Variations yet again I have no answer for that, other than perhaps if they exist, they just evolved like us, but much earlier in time. Perhaps they came upon an earlier Earth and adapted our its first life. Mayhap they adjusted their own genome to be cross fertile with us.... Perhaps. Have you ever read Last and First Men by Olaf Stapledon? Published in the twenties, subsequent genera of men adapted themselves for the foreseeable calamaties of their future including the sun going red giant No I think I did misread your Pool story that you thought that the events of the New Testament reflected the acts of this advanced race, and that Jesus/God/whatever could really have been true, in which case you wre a thaumaturgic Christian It was just one of my stories. Some idle speculation with a little pointed criticism of what it might take to get humanity focused on changing our ways. Con mi maz sincera admiracion Thanks, I think? Is this Italian? Zwi David

12-27-2002, 01:38 AM	#85
David M. Payne Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The land of chain smoking, bible thumping, holy ro Posts: 1,248	For the folks at RT also. David

01-02-2003, 08:48 PM	#86
hal9000 Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: just over your shoulder Posts: 146	Here is the Bob thread there, at rotten tomatoes.

01-10-2003, 11:36 AM	#87
Tristan Scott Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southwest USA Posts: 4,093	This reminds me of this: http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/cla...ogyIzness.html

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