Draygomb

Let's start at the beginning of civilization. People living in caves and mud huts, using crude stone tools. The 1 tribe of people I've heard of that still lived like that, not so much worshipped their newly deceased ancestors as they venerated them. This stemmed from the high level of psychic ability among the tribe. The dead or at least their ghosts would hang around and help the tribe find food. In return as a show of respect the tribe would make gifts for the spirits. Now like it or not all of that was fact. Don't believe in ESP, then how can you expect me to believe in something even more magical ? OK bare with me.

For the next step There were numerous examples all over the Americas and Africa and there are some still in existence. These tribes had advanced stone tools and venerated spirits that tended to stay in one place. They provided offerings which they would place at makeshift shrines. Once again fact.

Now for a little fill in the gaps conjecture. Technology has made life easier reducing the need for people to exercise their psychic abilities. This means there are fewer people who can hear the spirits. Look out here comes the shaman/witch doctor. It wouldn't take much. Instead of leaving gifts at the shrine now gifts go to the one who can hear the spirits. Along comes farming, which makes life even easier. Now only the best can hear the spirits. Gifts become payment for services. Greed brings non-psychics to the priesthood.

Back to fact. Early farming cultures had permanent shrines and organized "religion".

More reasonable conjecture. More shysters get into the priesthood. They assign greater and greater powers to their spirits. E.I. Spirit of the Spring, Spirit of the Pond, Spirit of the Lake, Spirit of the Ocean, God Of the Ocean. The Invention of writing forces the priests to stick to one story. Fighting breaks out to determine who's god is stronger. This leads to the King of the Gods, which brings temporary peace. Gods tend to be some what standardized because there are only so many things one needs a god for, War Weather Travel Love etc. and as all civilizations need the same things it only make sense.

Fact. Bronze Age civilizations were polytheistic. Religion was very organized with regular tribute being given to the priests. Actually there was an Egyptian King who outlawed all the other gods in favor of a 1-sun-god religion.

Conjecture. Along comes some wiseguy philosopher who realizes he can do one better than The King Of The Gods. He creates the One And Only God capable of handling all of your problems for less than you'd have to pay in total to all those other gods. What A Deal!

Fact: All Monotheistic Religions came from Polytheistic Cultures.

[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Draygomb ]</p>

Draygomb

Not even a comment?

Orpheous99

Originally posted by Draygomb:

The Court of the TwiceBorn 3:
The Absent Referent

"Every child is born into a universe ruled by a just and particular god, the
center of whose universe in turn that child is. None of us ever truly recovers
from the first great betrayal: that the universe is not that which the
evidence of our hearts and minds and senses has proclaimed it to be.

There is more magnanimity in human nature than is popularly supposed. If we
cannot claim a personal universe for ourselves, enfolded by a god who knows
our name, we will create it for others. A cosmos which notices, for good or
ill, is far preferable to one which simply ignores us.

Thus, one of the seductions of power. It begins, always, as an intent to
redress the wrong discovered in childhood---that one is not the center of the
of the universe, that in fact the universe, being no spectator, cannot possess
a center.

Against this, rather than for anything at all, we go to war and die, set up
gods and avatars, or declare that the universe indeed dances to some measure
if disinterested pattern which may now discover and invoke.

There is no escape. Life was made to hope; to believe, in the face of all
evidence, that something may yet be so because it is *nicer* than the reality
experienced daily.

It is true that in a continuum of random change, some change may be perceived
as for the better.

It is even possible, in an infinity of change, that the universe may come to
hold meaning at last."

Draygomb

Orpheous99

I never posted that. Please edit your post.

Orpheous99

I never said that you did. This was my response.

Vorkosigan

Draygomb,

Unfortunately, there are a number of African religions that are monotheistic (such as the Kikuyus, who worship N'gai who lives on Mt.Kenya) and their origins are pretty much lost. So your evolutionary sketch works only for certain sections of the Middle East, where YHWH evolved from a very polytheistic deity into a less polytheistic one. Certainly while Judaism could well be monotheistic, Christianity is looks more polytheistic.

<a href="http://alexm.here.ru/mirrors/www.enteract.com/jwalz/Eliade/004.html" target="_blank">page on Ngai</a>

Michael

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: turtonm ]</p>

Draygomb

Ngai the warrior god just smacks of polytheistic roots. If he is the only god who would their be for him to fight? Are these people farmers?

Upon further review of the site I see Ngai is only listed as a high god which indicates other gods exist.

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Draygomb ]</p>

Vorkosigan

Draygomb, it's nice to imagine that people evolve in some direction, but evolution, in whatever form, doesn't work that way. A single god is not "higher" than a polytheistic herd; are Hindus polytheists or monotheists, or maybe something else?

Religions are historical accidents. Christianity is more polytheistic than Judaism -- Muslims generally consider Christianity to be polytheism. Heck, Wahabis consider all other muslims to be polytheists. Confucians do not worship any god at all; surely that would make them the "highest" form of religion.

Whoever Ngai is, and whatever his ancestors were, that's up to you to find out. I'm just giving you friendly warning that you can't shoehorn some teleology of religion onto history; it won't work that way. History is not so simple; just erecting useful categories is difficult -- quick, is Christianity monotheistic or polytheistic? -- let alone trying to fit all of human history into them, cookie cutter style. The biggest mistake you can make, when using "evolution" to think about history, is to think it implies that the process is going toward something when in fact the process has no goal -- it just keeps going.

Michael

Draygomb

Turtonm I agree. It shows a higher level of understanding and thought about the origin of the universe. True, Christianity evolved to be more palatable to polytheists and so had to incorporate more elements of polytheism. Right again. Evolution doesn't imply a goal it only implies that better models will replace lesser models. Polytheism is being replaced by Monotheism which is being replaced by Atheism because Atheism has an advantage over Polytheism which has an advantage over Monotheism.

Ojuice5001

I disagree. The succession of polytheism, monotheism, and atheism is not progress, it is degeneration. To prove this is possible: Eastern thought went from the pre-Hindus, who had a commonsensical worldview, to the pantheistic Hinduism, to Buddhism, which is more mystical and therefore probably less has less truth than its predecessors. I think most who are not Buddhists would agree that this sucession is a decrease in the amount of truth.

Now, why do I think my original statement is true, rather than merely possible? Many reasons, but here's the one I will go into. The progression you describe blurs the distinctions between things. To go from Christian theism to naturalism, you have to believe that thoughts are the same sort of thing as other events, such as the growth of grass--they're both the product of purely natural operations. You have to believe that a desire to donate to the Red Cross, a desire to be a bully, a desire to eat grapefruit, a desire to posess a good-luck charm, a desire to worship Saturn, and a desire to be a father are all six the result of the same process--the need for gene survival. You have to believe that thoughts about the gods are basically the same as thoughts about candles, even though almost any theist would say this is not true.

The same thing happened when the Roman Empire abandoned the old gods to worship Jehovah. Things were lumped together as "good" or "evil." Morally good actions, physical pleasure, natural beauty, and true knowledge were pigeonholed as good creations of God. Selfishness, worship of good gods like Vesta, worship of evil gods like Moloch, physical pain, and death were slapped with the same label--"evil." So that is one reason I think it is best to return to paganism--its successors were a monotheism that distorted value theory, and an atheism that distorted metaphysics.

The <a href="http://www.novaroma.org" target="_blank">Roman religion</a> is a viable alternative to the endless debate between Christianity and naturalism that is exemplified by this forum. Sooner or later, the gods will win back the privilege of being worshipped. (Probably not in my lifetime though.)

(Edited to change the message icon from the default to thumbs down.)

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Ojuice5001 ]</p>