Freethought & Rationalism Archive

PopeInTheWoods · 06-13-2002, 08:08 AM

Jobar made an observation in <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000368" target="_blank">this thread</a> over in EoG that I'd like to expand on a bit.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar:
I have often heard theists condemn us for our overweening pride- but I have often thought that we atheists are in truth more humble than god-believers. You see, we are willing to say that *we don't know.* Our stand- agnostic, weak or strong atheist- is that the knowledge our young race possesses is insufficient to make any final or absolute statements concerning ultimate meanings. Oh, some of us are quite convinced that the knowledge we do have, is sufficient to deny the reality of all the descriptions of God which men have come up with over the last few thousand years. We are comfortable stating that there is no Yahweh, no Allah. (I ask the theists reading this, are you comfortable saying there is no Odin, no Zeus, no Shiva? That is *exactly* how we feel about the God you may believe in.)

How often do xians (among other theists) link the word "arrogant" with "atheists"? In my online experience, at least as often as they do the word "communist". But in addition to Jobar's counterpoint above, consider the following.

Atheist: Humans are one of the thousands upon thousands of species that have inhabited this minor planet of one ordinary star among billions in one ordinary galaxy among billions.

Xian: Humans are the special creations of the omni-everything Lord of the Universe, made in His image, and imbued with immortal souls.

Which view is the more arrogant?

Andy

GaryP · 06-13-2002, 08:31 AM

My sister is a fundy. When she found out about my Atheism, we had a big brouhaha over the phone.

The word arrogant and also prideful popped up. My response was; I think I am going to be dirt when I die, You think god is waiting for you in heaven. Who the heck is more arrogant?

rebelnerd · 06-13-2002, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GaryP:
My sister is a fundy. When she found out about my Atheism, we had a big brouhaha over the phone.

The word arrogant and also prideful popped up. My response was; I think I am going to be dirt when I die, You think god is waiting for you in heaven. Who the heck is more arrogant?

How dare you think for yourself!

Filo

Bible Humper · 06-13-2002, 09:31 AM

Well, notice how many/most theists are unable to understand that the statement "Yahweh exists" is a positive assertion? Lots of <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> goes on when they start insisting that in order to justify not believing in him, you need to prove that he doesn't actually exist. Simply knowing and admitting that "Yahweh exists" is a positive assertion doesn't disprove Yahweh, but they insist that it is the default position none-the-less.

I feel that this is because religious instruction is indoctrination rather than teaching. "Yahweh exists" gets hardcoded into them and leaves them incapable of thinking thoughts that cannot lead back to "Yahweh exists" directly or via rationalization.

Since "Yahweh exists" is so integral to their thoughts, they cannot even conceptualize his nonexistence. The Xians thus conceptualize atheist denial of Yahwehs existence to be "anger at God", "desire to be wicked" or "desire to be unrestrained by rules" or "rationalizing away all the proof" or some such thing, because all things must lead by nook or by crook to the central "Yahweh exists".

Since "Yahweh exists" is "obvious", you GaryP, have a lot of nerve to deny him your allegiance! Balls of solid stone!

hezekiah jones · 06-13-2002, 09:34 AM

Quote:

ar�ro�gant
adj
1: exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance in an overbearing manner.

All that needs to be said.

Secular Elation · 06-13-2002, 09:35 AM

I think the "arrogance" criticizm largely comes from many atheists near-dogmatic insistence on "rationality" and "reason." Many times I have seen, when an atheist is asked why he doesn't believe, that he is "a rational being." I agree with this, but the atheist is essentially saying, "If you are not an atheist then you are irrational and unreasonable [because you believe in God]."

There was one theist I encountered who did have distaste for atheists, saying, "You think you are all rational and smart, but there can be very intelligent people who both believe in God and don't believe."

cheetah · 06-13-2002, 09:51 AM

I agree with Secular Elation that that is the reason why xians think we are arrogant. Of course, they are the same way, because they are saying, "If you don't believe in god, you are misled and foolish" which is also a position of arrogance. But, I think the difference is, their doctrine encourages this type of arrogance, segregation that causes distrust, and pity for those who don't know the truth. Those of us who seem or act arrogant that are atheists are probably just at the end of their patience at being mischaracterized and not spoken to with careful, reasoned statements. It gets frustrating, and yet I see how it can seem like arrogance to theists. At least, that's why I know I seem arrogant about my atheism!!

Samhain · 06-13-2002, 11:09 AM

As pointless as it may seem, I'd like to hear some points of view on this issue from the theistic perspective. I'd like to know why we are labeled as arrogant by the masses of theists that come here, and usually, that we meet in real life. How 'bout it theists? Now's a chance to tell us why you think of us as arrogant.

PopeInTheWoods · 06-13-2002, 01:41 PM

Thanks for all the responses so far!

GaryP: Your sister probably just thinks she's being more "humble" and "hopeful", without realizing how self-centered her "God cares about ME" screed sounds.

B_H, hj, SE, cheetah: Good observations!

Quote:

Originally posted by Samhain:
As pointless as it may seem, I'd like to hear some points of view on this issue from the theistic perspective. I'd like to know why we are labeled as arrogant by the masses of theists that come here, and usually, that we meet in real life. How 'bout it theists? Now's a chance to tell us why you think of us as arrogant.

Samhain, I second your request. My only guess is that those theists resent that atheists feel that they can find meaning on their own (the bumper sticker "Born OK the First Time" comes to mind) without the guidance/orders of Yahweh or Allah or whomever....

Andy

ishalon · 06-13-2002, 06:13 PM

well... in the atheists appearing arrogant thing there is the fact that most atheists on these forums enjoy jokes and ridiculous examples to have fun while proving their point. (not that i disagree, it makes reading threads much more amusing

)

Also some very immature people i tried talking to about religion started frothing and throwing tantrums about me being arrogant right from the beginning but my attitude had not changed from when we talked about anything else. The fact that i considered myself "right" seemed to infume them...

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06-13-2002, 08:31 AM	#2
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	My sister is a fundy. When she found out about my Atheism, we had a big brouhaha over the phone. The word arrogant and also prideful popped up. My response was; I think I am going to be dirt when I die, You think god is waiting for you in heaven. Who the heck is more arrogant?

06-13-2002, 09:31 AM	#4
Bible Humper Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,125	Well, notice how many/most theists are unable to understand that the statement "Yahweh exists" is a positive assertion? Lots of <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> goes on when they start insisting that in order to justify not believing in him, you need to prove that he doesn't actually exist. Simply knowing and admitting that "Yahweh exists" is a positive assertion doesn't disprove Yahweh, but they insist that it is the default position none-the-less. I feel that this is because religious instruction is indoctrination rather than teaching. "Yahweh exists" gets hardcoded into them and leaves them incapable of thinking thoughts that cannot lead back to "Yahweh exists" directly or via rationalization. Since "Yahweh exists" is so integral to their thoughts, they cannot even conceptualize his nonexistence. The Xians thus conceptualize atheist denial of Yahwehs existence to be "anger at God", "desire to be wicked" or "desire to be unrestrained by rules" or "rationalizing away all the proof" or some such thing, because all things must lead by nook or by crook to the central "Yahweh exists". Since "Yahweh exists" is "obvious", you GaryP, have a lot of nerve to deny him your allegiance! Balls of solid stone!

06-13-2002, 09:35 AM	#6
Secular Elation Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: California Posts: 6,196	I think the "arrogance" criticizm largely comes from many atheists near-dogmatic insistence on "rationality" and "reason." Many times I have seen, when an atheist is asked why he doesn't believe, that he is "a rational being." I agree with this, but the atheist is essentially saying, "If you are not an atheist then you are irrational and unreasonable [because you believe in God]." There was one theist I encountered who did have distaste for atheists, saying, "You think you are all rational and smart, but there can be very intelligent people who both believe in God and don't believe."

06-13-2002, 09:51 AM	#7
cheetah Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,118	I agree with Secular Elation that that is the reason why xians think we are arrogant. Of course, they are the same way, because they are saying, "If you don't believe in god, you are misled and foolish" which is also a position of arrogance. But, I think the difference is, their doctrine encourages this type of arrogance, segregation that causes distrust, and pity for those who don't know the truth. Those of us who seem or act arrogant that are atheists are probably just at the end of their patience at being mischaracterized and not spoken to with careful, reasoned statements. It gets frustrating, and yet I see how it can seem like arrogance to theists. At least, that's why I know I seem arrogant about my atheism!!

06-13-2002, 11:09 AM	#8
Samhain Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 7,735	As pointless as it may seem, I'd like to hear some points of view on this issue from the theistic perspective. I'd like to know why we are labeled as arrogant by the masses of theists that come here, and usually, that we meet in real life. How 'bout it theists? Now's a chance to tell us why you think of us as arrogant.

06-13-2002, 06:13 PM	#10
ishalon Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: From: Posts: 203	well... in the atheists appearing arrogant thing there is the fact that most atheists on these forums enjoy jokes and ridiculous examples to have fun while proving their point. (not that i disagree, it makes reading threads much more amusing ) Also some very immature people i tried talking to about religion started frothing and throwing tantrums about me being arrogant right from the beginning but my attitude had not changed from when we talked about anything else. The fact that i considered myself "right" seemed to infume them...

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