Rational BAC

Cydonia seems to have bowed out of this discussion. Can't blame her much. Got ganged up on pretty good.

Figured she might need a little help in order to overcome her confusion one way or the other.

I find it quite likely that there is a Supreme Being of some kind or other. I have chosen the Christian God. And one of the reasons for that choice is that is the way I was brought up and, of all religions, I am most comfortable with Christianity because of that.

Not saying I couldn't be wrong about my particular choice of a Supreme Being. If on "the other side" I happen to meet Allah or some other deity, I'll just say "Whoops---won't be the first time I was wrong about something".

Why do I think it is quite likely and very logical that there is a Supreme Being of some kind?

Getting too late tonight to start that one.----for another time.

Later--

cydonia

NO NO!!!

Firstly, i'm a dude.

I've been working this is my first chance to post today, although i've enjoyed reading the posts here thus far.

Well, I really don't take Pat Boone all that seriously. But Pat Boone did make me think, but really only in regards to how people can look at the same thing (the universe) and get two different things from it. He is convinced god is real because of the universe's complexity. That used to be enough for me too, but I'm not so sure anymore.
I'm just so blown away how people are so convinced they are right. I know I'm not right, because I don't know "everything" the way Pat Boone does.

WWSD asked me to clarify about how I used to not be able to distinguish the concept of God from the concept of Jesus. Well, brainwashing basically. Everytime I tried to open my mind a little, the guilt would kick back in. JESUS IS THE WAY! BEWARE! That sort of thing. I could never really feel objective about the concept of God before, because the fear of Jesus was so close to me. I went back and forth between new age stuff, taoism, but still felt afraid I was going to hell. Then I studied gnosticism a little, trying to convince myself that I could acknowledge the absurdity of taking the bible literally and still not go to hell. So maybe while Pat Boone was attempting to make sure his beliefs were valid, I was trying to make sure the beliefs thrust on me weren't valid. I didn't want to go to hell. I also didn't want to believe some God could create such a place and use us for his own ego gratification.

Now I'm at this board, I'm an agnostic pushing towards atheism. I just wish I had the faith Pat Boone had.

Rational BAC

Noticed my time was way off on this Forum. Seems to be a Brit forum---N'est-ce pas?.

Anyway have reset from Zulu time to Eastern US Time. (I assume daylight saving, since that is what we are on now)

Just going to check if time is closer to reality.

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Nope--still coming up with a 5 hour difference. Oh well, not really all that important anyway-----And maybe it just takes time for the time to fix itself.

spacedOut

Not only is the universe complex, but it is awe inspiring, beautiful, mind numbing... my point being that our analysis that the universe is complex is strictly a human perspective. Does this fact prove that there is a god, or that we are indeed just human...

I've journeyed from Fundamentalism to Agnosticism and I am familiar with the difficulty of separating the concept of a higher being with that of Jesus and all the other crap recorded in the Bible. From a strictly personal point of view, I think it's possible that a higher being(s) does exist, however given that hypothesis, I would strongly doubt that it wants anything to do with me since it has never called, even once, to chat.

I now consider myself extremely lucky to be living in a time of human history when our scientific knowledge increases on a daily basis. Based on scientific discovery, I am constantly amazed at the complexity of our universe. However, I feel no need or desire to give credit to an ancient tribal war god...

Biff the unclean

Cydonia: …I'm an agnostic pushing towards atheism. I just wish I had the faith Pat Boone had

Yikes! I couldn't think of any thing that I'd rather have less. Pat Boone's faith; or more accurately--credulity; causes him to distort the world to suit his own fantasies. It causes his curiosity to sicken and die.

And let's not even mention his shoes.

Asha'man

What is this complex universe everybody is seeing? Every time I take a closer look at astronomy and modern physics, things looks very simple.

The entire universe is governed by just 4 fundamental forces. And if you look carefully, three of those forces are really the same thing, so there are really just two. There is speculation that it might be only one, but we aren’t sure about that yet.

The overall distribution of matter in the universe is best described as scattered and lumpy. It shows no more organization than a bowl of oatmeal dropped on the floor. And remember those two fundamental forces governing everything? Both of them do nothing but pull matter into lumps.

Just about everything that exists is made of only three things: protons, neutrons, and electrons. Again, if you look closely, even those three things are composed of simpler components, various flavors of quarks.

The only real place where I see a lot of complexity is on this tiny speck of a remote corner of an out of the way end of the universe, named Earth. But again, if you look at this complexity, you find that it has a really simple concept behind it: an automatic complexity generator. Yep, it has a simple mechanism that actually creates complexity, and this exact same mechanism is fundamental to all life that we can observe. So a little complexity here and there is almost expected….

Personally, if you think this universe is all that complex, you haven’t really looked at it.

Conchobar

I grew up early. In the second year of school, taught by Nuns, I was a shy lad who wanted to "fit in." I was required like the other lads to read the catechism and selected (sanitised) Bible stories. The stories each made no sense to me. Adam and Eve seemed to have been suckered into sin, and the penalty seemed extreme. Inherited guilt seemed downright tyrannical and vindictive. I read about Noah's Flood with cartoon pairs of animals walking up the gangplank to the boat as the rains started. Sister Mary Antonia told us of the wonderful miracle of Noah's family being saved. But I thought about the millions of people all over the world drowning. This meant children and little babies drowning. This also meant billions of innocent animals who committed no sin at all drowing because God had a temper tantrum.

Over time I read some of the bible myself. I even read the heretical King James Version of the official Church of Ireland (Northern Ireland). I read about the atrocities, the savagery, the terrible treatment of Job, the sacrificial killing of Japhtheh's daughter by Japhthah himself (Judges 11:39-40) and it horrified me. How could a good God do such evil things? I began to doubt this god, JHWY. My doubt grew each year. The recurrent talk of hell and guilt were troublesome. But I realised that my mates believed this without question. I definitely wanted to be immortal, who wouldn't. But if God were so evil and tricky to Adam and Job, could he be trusted if he existed. I wrestled with the dilemma for several years. I took the theology courses and the Bible Exegesis of the Scripture at Trinity College. But the more I learned the less of it I believed.

I finally resolved it as saying that I am an agnostic. I can't deny the possibility of a god of some kind. But I definitely ruled out the Christian god as self-contradictory good overbalanced by evil, love smothered in hate and rage in this god. So I am Atheistic regarding the Christian-Jewish-Musliim God but agnostic about other god hypotheses. I understand Cydonia's reluctance to abandon beliefs. I still would prefer to believe. I would have to believe in a kinder, nicer god but I would love to become immortal. I miss that delusion. Now I don't believe in it because there is not reason to believe in it. It makes no sense. But the delusion is tempting.

In childhood I wanted to be immortal, to fly like superman, to be a hero like Cuchulainn in the ancient fort at Emain Macha, but I know that none of it was going to happen.

Wishful thinking is natural and human but it doesn't make the delusions real.

Conchobar

Biff the unclean

Myself I was more the fan of Finn MacCumhaill. But it sounds like you worked hard to get where you are. Why envy what you've already freed yourself from?