crocodile deathroll

I walked past a church in the Xmas season which stated quite cotagorically Christ is the reason for the Season.
Well, that could not be further from the truth. A truer reason for the season was the Roman Saturnalia Celebrations starting at around 17th of December. It celebrated the rebirth of the "sun" not the "son"
It began at the time of the northern winter solstice when the daylight hours bagun to lengthen once hence the rebirth of the sun, and it was a time of much gift giving, tolerence and the traditional hanging out of decorations in Ancient Roman times. The Christians, with a quirky little play on words adopted it as the rebirth of their "son"(sic) not the "sun". The truth birth of Christ was more likely to be around October.
This was monumental act of deceit on behalf to the church, as they were more hellbent on taking the fun out of the traditional pagan winter solstace celebrations and replacing it with a mass delusion that every one "must" in their minds celebrate it as the birth of Christ or be put of trial as a heretic.

crocodole deathroll
wishing a Merry Saturnalia to you all

x-member

This is an interesting time of the year for me. It seems that even agnostics celebrate "The Birth of Christ" -though without belief-.

Bear with me here whilst I likely fail to articulate myself. It strikes me that there is an extra bit of usery by christianity this time of year. Where the concept of salvation, the threat of damnation, or the shot-gun "something for everyone" of the trinity fails, modern christianity seems to play on protective instinct of adults to children.

This is the only time of the year when christianity brings out "the baby". For 330 days of the year it is about a mesiah, sins, and salvation. For 35 days (or so) it is about "Baby Jesus". The religion reverts to images of a "Cute Infant". A season where "god" is placed in diapers to be more saleable. The "church" then engages in my favorite hypocracy. The "church" issues sermons condeming the commercialization of the season, then asks for money.

Sorry; I did not intend to rant. Driving home today I saw a billboard with the following quote, "Lies make *BABY* Jesus *CRY*". I don't intend to rant, but it is better than the projectile vomiting.

Jon

[ December 25, 2001: Message edited by: Jon Up North ]</p>

razib

the time around solstice has a significance to many norther peoples, it's not surprising the xtians coopted it as they expanded their faith through europe. also, here's an interesting quote i remember out of the washington post a couple of years back about xmas in japan:

"...Christmas in Japan has taken on a life of it's own, and many Japanese do not know of the Christian associations of the holiday. Just the other day, I was walking next to a group of Japanese youths that passed a church, and one of the women exclaimed, 'Look, they're even celebrating Christmas in the church!'..."

Derek

I don't know, for me it has been pretty simple. Coming from a family who said we were Xn but the only time we entered the sacred doors was when Grandma had a hold of the ears, it has always been about family, friends, and the loot (of course). I have been told the tree is pagan, I have been told if you don't have baby J in there somewhere then is hypocritical, I have been told the fat white guy sliding down the chimney in his red jammies is racist, too much, too deep. What I do know, it is a time of year that my family gets together, laughs, eats and talks (something we can't seem to do the rest of the year) and enjoys each others company. This year I was not able to make it home but I did talk to the family by phone, I did get to spend it with a very special lady who did get me some nice loot and she made me smile. To me, that it is what it is all about. Seems a little too simple.

diana

Originally posted by newbie21:
I have been told the tree is pagan,

I didn't know trees had religious beliefs.

I have been told if you don't have baby J in there somewhere then is hypocritical,

It is, but according to Ye Olde Double Standarde (section 6, paragraph 2), Xns aren't being hypocritical for not acknowleging Sol Invictus on His birthday, 25 December.

I have been told the fat white guy sliding down the chimney in his red jammies is racist, too much, too deep.

I agree. For the record, I've always thought an Ethiopian would fit down the chimney better.

This year I was not able to make it home but I did talk to the family by phone, I did get to spend it with a very special lady who did get me some nice loot and she made me smile.

Quit calling me a "lady."

d

Amos

Just as the daily rounds of samsara culminate in the final round of samsara so do the daily masses culminate in the final Christ-mass.

The difference is mythology specifics only which now means that heaven and nirvana are the same.

Derek

heaven and nirvana may be the same but "d" is a lady. just couldn't wait any longer.

diana

This isn't an argument. It's just contradiction. (No it isn't.) Yes it is! An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. A contradiction is the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says. (No it isn't...)

Bald (haha) assertion won't fly on this board.

I'll grant you that I probably had this coming after that "gentleman" crack I made about you.

Are we even?

d

diana

By the way, croc death, sorry about disrupting the discussion. I had been challenged to locate someone, and he happened to nest in your thread.

The Christians, with a quirky little play on words adopted it as the rebirth of their "son"(sic) not the "sun".

I've read a couple of times that the pagan celebration of the birth of Mithras/Sol Invictus became a part of Christianity during the reign of Constantine, who was an adherent of both...or something like that. Anybody have details here?

d

Euromutt

Co-opting a pagan festival is nothing new for the early Christians, of course.

"Holy Father, the newly converted pagans want a pantheon!"
"We'll give them patron saints instead!"

"Holy Father, the Vikings won't convert!"
"Shave down that crucifix and make it look more like Thor's Hammer, that'll bring 'em round!"

"Holy Father, this celebrating the birth of the Saviour in February business isn't taking off!"
"When do they all these pagans hold winter festivals? Around the solstice? Well, rewrite the story and make it take place in late December, then."

Incidentally, an article in the Holiday issue of <a href="http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=883605" target="_blank">The Economist</a> suggested that the whole Star of Bethlehem story was load of hooey cooked up by Matthew; since folks back then were heavily into astrological prediction, someone may have asked Matthew at the time "So why wasn't the arrival of this 'Saviour' Written In The Stars?" to which Matthew would have had to reply "Er, well, actually it was..." and make something up on the spot. Possibly he recalled an astronomical event that had taken place (though not at the alleged time) and modified it a bit, more likely he just lied through his teeth.

[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Euromutt ]</p>