Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mark9950 · 03-18-2003, 07:03 PM

May not have been miracles that we may consider the miracles of today(depending what we would consider a miracle).

Jesus was a human and at that time the medical field was small(a lot smaller than the medical field of today)They probably had doctors that had limited power in medicine (Like we had during our wild west era,you know the doctor with the medical bag that made house calls).

With minimum knowledge of medicine many people would have thought that jesus was perfoming miracles when he may have studied more about the medical field than the average guy.

The miracles that he may have performed(if he even existed) was probably no different than being a doctor with more knowledge than the average person.The only difference was that he never told anyone he studied medicine at that time, to make him look like a miracle worker.

I say that doctors of today are miracle workers,they can transplant hearts,kidneys,and many other organs.But we don't consider them a savior and worship them.do we?

Think about that.

Magus55 · 03-18-2003, 08:15 PM

When is the last time we allowed someone to see who was born blind, ever seen a doctor walk on water? Since when do we bring people back to life who have been dead and buried in the ground for a few days?

Now obviously no atheist believes the miracles even happened, but no sorry - Jesus was not some skilled doctor, because if he was - he had more medical knowledge than any doctor does today.

MortalWombat · 03-18-2003, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Jesus was not some skilled doctor, because if he was - he had more medical knowledge than any doctor does today.

He seemed to have the same medical knowledge as the Roman emporer Vespasian, who was recorded by the historian Seutonius to have healed a blind man in basically the same way as Jesus: with spit.

Compare:

Quote:

John 9:
6Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man's eyes. 7"Go," he told him, "wash in the Pool of Siloam" (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.

with

[quote]Suetonius: De Vita Caesarum--Divus Vespasianus

Quote:

VII. Therefore beginning a civil war and sending ahead generals with troops to Italia, he crossed meanwhile to Alexandria, to take possession of the key to Egypt [The strategic importance of Egypt is shown by Tac. Ann. 2.59; cf. Jul. xxxv.1 (at the end); Aug. xviii.2]. There he dismissed all his attendants and entered the Temple of Serapis alone, to consult the auspices as to the duration of his power. And when after many propitiary offerings to the god he at length turned about, it seemed to him that his freedman Basilides [The freedman's name, connected with the Greek "Basileus", or "King", was an additional omen] offered him sacred boughs, garlands and loaves, as is the custom there; and yet he knew well that no one had let him in, and that for some time he had been hardly able to walk by reason of rheumatism, and was besides far away. And immediately letters came with the news that Vitellius had been routed at Cremona and the emperor himself slain at Rome. Vespasian as yet lacked prestige and a certain divinity, so to speak, since he was an unexpected and still new-made emperor; but these also were given him. A man of the people who was blind, and another who was lame, came to him together as he sat on the tribunal, begging for the help for their disorders which Serapis had promised in a dream; for the god declared that Vespasian would restore the eyes, if he would spit upon them, and give strength to the leg, if he would deign to touch it with his heel. Though he had hardly any faith that this could possibly succeed, and therefore shrank even from making the attempt, he was at last prevailed upon by his friends and tried both things in public before a large crowd; and with success. At this same time, by the direction of certain soothsayers, some vases of antique workmanship were dug up in a consecrated spot at Tegea in Arcadia and on them was an image very like Vespasian.

WinAce · 03-18-2003, 08:32 PM

Quote:

During the months which Vespasian spent at Alexandria waiting for the regular season of the summer winds to ensure a safe voyage, there occurred many miraculous events manifesting the goodwill of Heaven and a certain favor of Providence towards him. At Alexandria a commoner, whose eyes were well know to have wasted away, on the advice of Serapis (whom this superstitious people worship as their chief god) fell at Vespasian's feet demanding with sobs a cure for his blindness, and imploring that the Emperor would deign to moisten his eyes and eyeballs with the spittle from his mouth. Another man with a maimed hand, also inspired by Serapis, besought Vespasian to imprint his footmark with it.... To the great excitement of the bystanders, he stepped forward with a smile on his face and did as the men desired him. Immediately the hand recovered its functions and daylight shone once more in the blind man's eyes. Those who were present still attest both miracles today, when there is nothing to gain by lying.

- Tacitus, Histories 4:81

Quote:

Vespasian as yet lacked prestige and a certain divinity, so to speak, since he was an unexpected and still new-made emperor; but these also were given him. A man of the people who was blind, and another who was lame, came to him together as he sat on the tribunal, begging for the help for their disorders which Serapis had promised in a dream; for the god declared that Vespasian would restore the eyes, if he would spit upon them, and give strength to the leg, if he would deign to touch it with his heel. Though he had hardly any faith that this could possibly succeed, and therefore shrank even from making the attempt, he was at last prevailed upon by his friends and tried both things in public before a large crowd; and with success.

- Suetonius, Vespasian 7.2

Quote:

Following Vespasian�s entry into Alexandria the Nile overflowed, having in one day risen a palm higher than usual; such an occurrence, it was said, had taken place only once before. Vespasian himself healed two persons, one having a withered hand, the other being blind, who had come to him because of a vision seen in dreams; he cured the one by stepping on his hand and the other by spitting upon his eyes. Yet, though Heaven was thus magnifying him, the Alexandrians, far from delighting in his presence, detested him so heartily that they were forever mocking and reviling him. For they had expected to receive from him some great reward because they had been the first to make him emperor, but instead of securing anything they had additional contributions levied upon them.

- Cassius Dio 65.8

Three different historians mentioning the Emperor Vespassian healing a blind and a deaf man. May I ask whether you accept these accounts, Magus?

JCS · 03-18-2003, 08:33 PM

Quote:

ever seen a doctor walk on water?

No, have you?

Quote:

Since when do we bring people back to life who have been dead and buried in the ground for a few days?

They are buried because they are dead.:banghead:

Peter Kirby · 03-18-2003, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
When is the last time we allowed someone to see who was born blind,

The first time may not be that far away.

http://unisci.com/stories/20012/0430015.htm
"Puppies Born Blind See Again Thanks To Gene Therapy"

"Dogs blinded by an inherited retinal degenerative disease had their vision restored after treatment with genes from healthy dogs, marking the first successful gene therapy for blindness in a large animal."

"The treatment offers hope for humans with a similar condition."

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
ever seen a doctor walk on water? Since when do we bring people back to life who have been dead and buried in the ground for a few days?

Now obviously no atheist believes the miracles even happened, but no sorry - Jesus was not some skilled doctor, because if he was - he had more medical knowledge than any doctor does today.

Your response seems to be predicated on the assumption that the biblical accounts are accurate in all details.

best,
Peter Kirby

Vorkosigan · 03-18-2003, 08:56 PM

At this same time, by the direction of certain soothsayers, some vases of antique workmanship were dug up in a consecrated spot at Tegea in Arcadia and on them was an image very like Vespasian.

Some things never change....

03-18-2003, 09:05 PM

Greetings all,

Funny thing about Jesus' miracles is that NO-ONE noticed them!

Contemporaries who wrote relevant works make NO mention of Jesus or his miracles at all :

Justus of Tiberias wrote a history of Galilee in the 1st century - the very time and place of Jesus alleged ministry - yet says NOTHING about Jesus or his miracles or the Gospel events.

Philo Judaeus wrote about the Jews and their affairs in the mid 1st century - but he says NOTHING about Jesus or his miracles or the Gospel events.

Even the early Christians show NO knowledge of Jesus' miracles until a CENTURY or so after they allegedly happened :

Paul says nothing about Jesus' miracles.

pseudo-Paul and the Pastorals say nothing about Jesus' miracles.

The epistles of John say NOTHING about the miracles or Jesus (or indeed ANYTHING concrete about a historical person) even though they were alledgedly written by his dearest disciple.

Jude and Hebrews say nothing.

Even the epistle of James, supposedly the very brother of Jesus says NOTHING about Jesus' miracles (or teachings or ANYTHING concrete about a historical person - he only even uses the name JC once, in a vague way). James even quotes the famous "Love thy neighbour" WITHOUT attributing it to Jesus!

Clement, the Didache, and Hermas say nothing.

Nor do Barnabas or Revelation shows the slightest hint of any miracles by Jesus.

Not even the Ignatiana, the very FIRST writings to historicise Jesus in time and place, make mention of miracles by Jesus.

The stories of miracles by Jesus are first found in :
G.Thomas, G.Marcion, Epistle of the Apostles, and Justin,
i.e. early-mid 2nd century.

The miracles of Jesus, like his whole life story, is a later invention - no early Christians show any belief in a historical Jesus.

Iasion

Gregg · 03-19-2003, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WinAce
Three different historians mentioning the Emperor Vespassian healing a blind and a deaf man. May I ask whether you accept these accounts, Magus?

That does it. I'm worshipping Vespasian. All these accounts and eyewitnesses--it MUST have happened.

Gregg

keyser_soze · 03-19-2003, 01:56 AM

All must bow before the god on earth vespassian!:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

03-18-2003, 07:03 PM	#1
mark9950 Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: midwest usa Posts: 1,203	Jesus' miracles? May not have been miracles that we may consider the miracles of today(depending what we would consider a miracle). Jesus was a human and at that time the medical field was small(a lot smaller than the medical field of today)They probably had doctors that had limited power in medicine (Like we had during our wild west era,you know the doctor with the medical bag that made house calls). With minimum knowledge of medicine many people would have thought that jesus was perfoming miracles when he may have studied more about the medical field than the average guy. The miracles that he may have performed(if he even existed) was probably no different than being a doctor with more knowledge than the average person.The only difference was that he never told anyone he studied medicine at that time, to make him look like a miracle worker. I say that doctors of today are miracle workers,they can transplant hearts,kidneys,and many other organs.But we don't consider them a savior and worship them.do we? Think about that.

03-18-2003, 09:05 PM	#8
Iasion Guest Posts: n/a	miracles? Greetings all, Funny thing about Jesus' miracles is that NO-ONE noticed them! Contemporaries who wrote relevant works make NO mention of Jesus or his miracles at all : Justus of Tiberias wrote a history of Galilee in the 1st century - the very time and place of Jesus alleged ministry - yet says NOTHING about Jesus or his miracles or the Gospel events. Philo Judaeus wrote about the Jews and their affairs in the mid 1st century - but he says NOTHING about Jesus or his miracles or the Gospel events. Even the early Christians show NO knowledge of Jesus' miracles until a CENTURY or so after they allegedly happened : Paul says nothing about Jesus' miracles. pseudo-Paul and the Pastorals say nothing about Jesus' miracles. The epistles of John say NOTHING about the miracles or Jesus (or indeed ANYTHING concrete about a historical person) even though they were alledgedly written by his dearest disciple. Jude and Hebrews say nothing. Even the epistle of James, supposedly the very brother of Jesus says NOTHING about Jesus' miracles (or teachings or ANYTHING concrete about a historical person - he only even uses the name JC once, in a vague way). James even quotes the famous "Love thy neighbour" WITHOUT attributing it to Jesus! Clement, the Didache, and Hermas say nothing. Nor do Barnabas or Revelation shows the slightest hint of any miracles by Jesus. Not even the Ignatiana, the very FIRST writings to historicise Jesus in time and place, make mention of miracles by Jesus. The stories of miracles by Jesus are first found in : G.Thomas, G.Marcion, Epistle of the Apostles, and Justin, i.e. early-mid 2nd century. The miracles of Jesus, like his whole life story, is a later invention - no early Christians show any belief in a historical Jesus. Iasion

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03-18-2003, 08:15 PM	#2
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	When is the last time we allowed someone to see who was born blind, ever seen a doctor walk on water? Since when do we bring people back to life who have been dead and buried in the ground for a few days? Now obviously no atheist believes the miracles even happened, but no sorry - Jesus was not some skilled doctor, because if he was - he had more medical knowledge than any doctor does today.

03-18-2003, 08:56 PM	#7
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	At this same time, by the direction of certain soothsayers, some vases of antique workmanship were dug up in a consecrated spot at Tegea in Arcadia and on them was an image very like Vespasian. Some things never change....

03-19-2003, 01:56 AM	#10
keyser_soze Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: god's judge (pariah) Posts: 1,281	All must bow before the god on earth vespassian!:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

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