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Old 05-17-2003, 12:34 PM   #41
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Default Noah and Gilgamesh

I suppose at some point, someone on this board has pointed out that the "Noah's Flood" legend is a retrofitted version of a flood story from the legend of Gilgamesh, about a Babylonian ruler.

"He advised the walls of Utnapishtim's house to build a great boat, its length as great as its breadth, to cover the boat, and to bring all living things into the boat. Utnapishtim gets straight to work and finishes the great boat by the new year.
Utnapishtim then loads the boat with gold, silver, and all the living things of the earth, and launches the boat. Ea orders him into the boat and commands him to close the door behind him. The black clouds arrive, with the thunder god Adad rumbling within them; the earth splits like an earthenware pot, and all the light turns to darkness. The Flood is so great that even the gods are frightened:
...
The Flood lasts for seven days and seven nights, and finally light returns to the earth. Utnapishtim opens a window and the entire earth has been turned into a flat ocean; all humans have been turned to stone. Utnapishtim then falls to his knees and weeps. Utnapishtim's boat comes to rest on the top of Mount Nimush; the boat lodges firmly on the mountain peak just below the surface of the ocean and remains there for seven days. On the seventh day:

I [Utnapishtim] released a dove from the boat, It flew off, but circled around and returned, For it could find no perch. I then released a swallow from the boat, It flew off, but circled around and returned, For it could find no perch. I then released a raven from the boat, It flew off, and the waters had receded: It eats, it scratches the ground, but it does not circle around and return. I then sent out all the living things in every direction and sacrificed a sheep on that very spot.

...

You can read the rest at:

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/GILG.HTM[/URL]
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Old 05-18-2003, 12:38 PM   #42
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And the Babylonian Legend of Gilgamesh derived from even older Sumerian Flood Myths. The Sumerian "Noah" was Ziusara, sometimes called Atrahasis or Utnapisti.
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Old 05-18-2003, 01:58 PM   #43
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Here is an online translation of Atrahasis:

http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/...atrahasis.html

It follows the "standard" translation by Stephanie Dalley, “Myths from Mesopotamia: Creation, The Flood, Gilgamesh, and Others. Revised” 2000:Oxford: Oxford University Press. The significant features of "Atrahasis" seem to me to be that there is a sequence of events presented which are those known archaeologically to have occurred in all societies which practiced irrigation agriculture.

It is not obvious to me whether the story was included in the Torah as a result of the first Babylonian exile, or from the influence of Ugarit. There seem to be 'J' and "E" sources for most of Genesis. This argues for a very early inclusion, i.e. prior to the Babylonian exile. An interesting Ugarit site is:

http://www.theology.edu/ugarbib.htm

Clearly the obsession with Baal began in Uragit, with the tradition of refering to the Hebrew (Israel's) god as "El" or "Elohim" as it is clearly a northern tradition.

Some additional good books on the sources of biblical literature:

Jacobsen, Thorkild
1976 “The Treasures of Darkness: A History of Mesopotamian Religion” New Haven:Yale University Press

Friedman, Richarrd Elliott
1987 “Who Wrote the Bible” New York:Harper and Row (Paperback Edition)

Pardee, Dennis
2002 “Writings from the Ancient World Vol. 10: Ritual and Cult at Ugarit” Atlanta: Society of Biblical Literature

Parker, Simon, et al
1997 “Writings from the Ancient World Vol. 9: Ugarit Narrative Poetry” Atlanta:Society of Biblical Literature

Blenkinsopp, Joseph
1992 The Pentateuch: An Introduction to the First Five Books of the Bible” The Anchor Bible Reference Library New York: ABRL/Doubleday

Parker, Simon B. (Editor)
1997 Ugarit Narrative Poetry Translated by Mark S. Smith, Simon B. Parker, Edward L Greenstein, Theodore J. Lewis, David Marcus, Vol. 9 Writings from the Ancient World. Atlanta: Society of Biblical Literature
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Old 05-18-2003, 04:07 PM   #44
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According to an article on one of the creationist websites, the huge mats of dead vegetation, which are the source of all the coal deposits, floated round the world after the flood and were the means by which all the animals got to their different homes. Guess it was just coincidence that all the marsupials hitched a ride on the only mat that didn't happen to carry a single placental mammal.
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Old 05-19-2003, 01:54 AM   #45
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Aren't there any marsupials in South America?
 
Old 05-19-2003, 02:01 AM   #46
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Well, according to dictionary.com, marsupials are "found principally in Australia and the Americas" and include opossums. By and large, however, the vast majority of marsupials live only in Australia...because that's where God wants them (damn heathen 'possums--you know they're going straight to hell).
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Old 05-19-2003, 08:42 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doubting Didymus
I think there are answers to the noahs descendants questions, though I only know the one about africa.

You all remember Ham, the poor sap who caught his father pissed out of his brain and dead starkers? Well, its been suggested that when he was exiled and cursed with slavery, he...

Here I pause, to consider how stupid this next line will sound.

Right, so he was exiled and his descendants cursed with slavery, so he... Went to africa and turned black.
That was used by white people to justify black slaves. But the Bible doesn't say that Ham's descendents were black. BTW, Ham did see Noah naked and drunk, but it was Ham's son, Canaan, and Canaan's descendents who were cursed by Noah (and God). In Genesis 10 it mentions many of the descendents of Canaan - and these make up the evil people in the OT... besides the Philistines, who weren't descended from Canaan (so they weren't slaves) but were still decended from Ham. (well there's also the Egyptians, Babylonians, etc, though) In Gen 10:19 it says that some went to Sodom and Gomorrah. When Moses invaded the promised lands he was ordered to completely slaughter groups descended from Canaan (see Deuteronomy 20:17). The others were either killed or became slaves.
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