lisarea

I'm pretty much surrounded by churches around here, and they always seem to be building new ones, so I've been wondering: What does this cost my community?

I realize there's no single answer, but I'm interested in having some general data at hand, or at least a list of the factors involved. I figure that there's the loss of tax revenue, loss of potential jobs and income for the city if it's in a retail space, potential use of city resources, like police to direct traffic, etc. (The churches don't pay for this, do they?), and things like that.

Anything else? I'm thinking that somewhere, someone must have done an analysis of this, but I haven't had any luck finding anything so far.

Thieving Magpie

Really, it doesn't cost your community anything, because your community as a whole is not paying for it. There may be a difference in how much use could be made out of the land, but the Churches do not actually cost you money.

What building Churches does do, however, is provide work for architects, construction crews, and all manner of trade workers. Once completed most Churches can be used as community buildings, used to host craft fairs, youth groups, day cares, music shows, et cetera...

A church is just like any other community center in terms of those things - they can potentially be used to make a community better. Not because they are religious, mind you, but because they are useful as buildings.

Also, retail space tends to cost a lot of money, and churches as a rule have a pretty tight budget. Churches tend to be built on cheap land in residential areas.. things like community revenue through loss of business space, redirection of traffic and whatnot are essentially non-issues, to my understanding.

I don't know for sure though, I couldn't give you any numbers. I'm just theorizing here.

Toto

The cost will depend on the particular situation. A church built on low density land that would not be used for anything else might add to the community. It would be no more of a drag on the local taxes than another community type hall (a social club or a lodge, e.g.) The tax exemption for churches is based on the idea that they contribute things to the community, and you find a lot of low-budget exercise classes, ballroom dance classes, and political meetings in church halls, expecially in older neighborhoods

On the other hand, in the recent zoning case in Southern California, a church wanted to build a megachurch complex on a large parcel of desireable land. The city involved wanted a commercial development there, to generate sales tax revenue. They have settled the case, I believe, with the church agreeing to relocate its plans to some other land that the city provided. But if the church had been allowed to go ahead, it would have cost a lot of tax revenue.

Neighborhood opposition to megachurches is based on the impact they have on traffic, noise, etc. Most of them have their own social services, day care, bookstores, etc., and are not in the business of providing space for other community groups to meet.

lisarea

I'm probably not being clear enough here.

In my city, at least, the churches don't provide any community service I'm aware of at all. That is, nothing that's not specifically for Christians. Yes, some of them have Christian craft fairs, Bible study classes, Christian day cares, and other community services for Christians, ranging from those that I would consider mildly divisive to those I consider almost hate crimes. The only interest or value for me in any of these is that maybe they're keeping Christians off the streets for a while. The only secular service I can think of that they ever provide is when they serve as polling places, which is quite rare. Those are usually in the schools.

Yes, most of the churches nearby are located in residential neighborhoods, so the loss of property taxes is less than for those in retail zones. However, a neighboring city just had a fight over a huge 'mega-church' that's located in a retail area, and the opponents lost. This thing is massive, it's obtrusive, it's ugly, and it is taking up valuable real estate along a pretty major corridor. Although this thing is only a couple of blocks away, I'm fortunate enough to be in a different city and county, so I'm not subsidizing that one with my property taxes. However, I am subsidizing any number of churches that are in my city, both in retail and residential neighborhoods. I guess the only way I could accurately calculate the cost of these would be to estimate (or locate information on) the property values of each of these churches, tally that up and calculate the lost property tax revenue from such, and then figure out what my portion of that is. And, you know, I may actually do that some day.

But what I'm wondering is if anyone has actually calculated this sort of thing in general terms, and what factors need to play into it. For example, every Sunday, a church across the street from me has several police officers outside it, stopping oncoming traffic to let churchgoers exit the parking lot. I'm wondering just how common this is, whether these officers are in fact on duty and being paid with my tax dollars, what the guidelines are for providing what are essentially private services with public money, and so forth. I read something about the annual pre-Christmas Wal-Mart riots recently that indicated that Wal-Mart, at least in some areas, was having to pay for the cost of police services to patrol their parking lots; and I'm wondering if there is some rule of thumb for reimbursing public services for institutions that knowingly create situations in which police are required, and if so, if churches are exempt.

I'm also interested in trying to figure what other potential income is lost from churches that are located in retail zones. We do have a number of these in my city, too, and I'd be interested in trying to calculate some general numbers, in terms of loss of sales taxes, new jobs, etc. I realize this won't be exact, but I'd still be interested in getting a general idea of how to make a conservative estimate of this sort of thing, just for the sake of argument.

I know that there's at least one group that introduced a (failed) ballot initiative to tax churches here a while back, and I was hoping maybe someone knew who they were and what sort of data they might have.

The fact is, the economy is pretty crappy right now. Several local businesses have gone under lately, people are unemployed, and in light of these issues, I think it'd be especially interesting to have an idea of how much of my money is going to subsidize churches.

GaryP

This topic has bothered me also.

While I understand the theory of churches contributing to the community , I can't think of anything churches around me do that I would be interested in. (They do host some events during our city's summer arts Festval, but then a govt. built auditorium would be better.)

In fact, we have a publicly funded Nativity scene which would fit very nicely onto a number of churches' lawns yet when I wrote to the Ministerial Assn. suggesting the idea, I was told that they would not want to be involved in such a "controversial" idea.
So I guess their tax exemption does not save them enough money to buy straw once a year for the plaster sheep!

And we have a "mega-church" on prime residential and/or commercial land. I often see sherrif deputies controlling traffic there. I am pretty sure that legally, the church must pay the county for these services at the same rate as Wal-Mart.

However, the current sheriff is a member of that church. He wears a cross on his official uniform tie. He gave the invocation (in uniform) at the Cancer Society Fund raiser. His dept. was listed as a sponsor at the church's "Hell-Escape". (This was changed after I wrote a letter.) So.. I wonder about just who is making sure his church is actually paying their fair share.

(This same church was used as the site to swear in the new city council members a few years ago! Even the local paper thought THAT was inappropriate!)

lisarea-- At least one US president shared your concern;

"In 1850, I believe, the church property in the United States , which paid no tax, amounted to $87,000,000. In 1900, without a check, it is safe to say , this total will reach a sum exceeding $ 3 billion. I would suggest the taxation of each property equally."

President U S Grant from 2000 Years of Disbelief by James A. Haught

PopeInTheWoods

Sheriff Phalen?!? I voted for him, and even met him (on TV camera) when vandals burned some American flags on display in our old Pickerington neighborhood last summer. I wish I would have know about his theocratic impulses back then.

What "mega-church" are you talking about? Not that World Harvest monstrosity?

Andy

GaryP

Andy-

The church is the Fairfield Christian Church on N. Columbus st. in Lancaster. It's not as big as World Harvest but is the largest one in the city.

I've met him too. And he seems like a nice guy. I don't think he respects separation too well though.

When I wrote to the county about his the Sherriff's dept. sponsoring Hell Escape, the county administrator replied quickly and said that after he explained the problem Sheriff Phalen seemed to understand. It sounded as if the Sheriff didn't really want to change the website but finally agreed to.

Puck

We have alot of 100+ year old churches around here that only meet once a month, so property taxes on them would mean they could no longer keep going.

Personally, I think the churches should be taxed for property that exceeds above X amount of dollars in value if that church is not a historic building.

These days, we see the mega-churches being built, and it's quite clear there's major money being made by these churches. They should be contributing their fair share. Any services they offer aren't the point. I know lots of folks that contribute alot to their communities, and they aren't free of taxes.

LLaurieG

(Laurie) Thanks for this thread, lisarea, and for making me think about this, because I hadn't really before. Of course I think churches should be assessed property tax, and that includes (Puck) old historic ones. Aren't they always preaching "God will provide?" Well, let him!

On another board I once surveyed our members: How much did their church memberships cost THEM annually on average? Including EVERYTHING: Sunday collection plate, extra donations asked for and given such as for running missionaries, holiday contributions, and also estimate "free contributions" of things like old clothes, books & baked goods for rummage & bake sales. Wow! Just that ran to THOUSANDS of dollars per year on average. (The board was mostly comprised of atheists, but many had religious spouses, and so still gave to a church). One guy whose wife was an Episcopal deacon figured their contribution at almost $8,000 per YEAR. Five bucks in the plate on Sunday plus $50 at Christmas is still over $300 a year. That's a buck a day for the Imaginary Friend. (Heh! Imagine parents tolerating kids' imaginary friends, but insisting the kid pay $1 a day out of his or her allowance for that friend's "maintenance?" Fun thought!)

Anyway, adding up collection plate contribution doesn't count homeowners' property tax "subsidy" - which you correctly do. I was at the Godless Americans March on Washington last November. I had to handle a camera, but my chosen sign for the event would have been "Do you tithe? Why? Did Almighty God lose his wallet?"

This religious exemption granted from income AND property taxes is one of the best pragmatic reasons for atheists to declare our organizations just as "founded on belief" as religions are.

Shake

I'm sure they fight it because a lot of the smaller churches would surely go under if taxed. Maybe some of the larger ones too, if they've got a huge building, but a not so huge congregation.

Yeah, it boggles me how much folks give. My 'rents easily give over $1000/yr, and they're both over 60 and should really be saving that for retirement. It amazed me to find out years ago, when I still attended church, how little some people gave. Many of the families we went to church with made at least double what our family did, but gave much less, at least proportionately if not in actual dollars! As an adult it makes less sense to me, since can't they write that off as charitable donations? Why wouldn't the better off give more?

That was one of the hypocrasies that started my dislike of "organized religion" in the first place.