Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Viti · 06-07-2002, 06:09 PM

luvluv....prostitutes and porn actresses are not the same thing. In case you haven't noticed there are not millions of porn stars, you are apt to see the same ones over and over unless you stick to "amateur". These people know each other in most cases, they are not sleeping with strangers off the street. My friend with the twins only does scenes with her husband or women she knows.

BTW, what is your speculation on the motivations of exotic dancers, or fetish wear models, or Men's Magazine models....are they also no different than prostitutes (as you seem to think porn actor=hooker)....why are you lumping these things together? The "sex industry" runs the gambit from tame to freaky, should they not be separate entities?

[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: LadyShea ]

MadMordigan · 06-07-2002, 06:12 PM

Perhaps your sexual technique differs from mine, but having sex and opening fire in public ain't even the same sport.

People do stupid things all the time. I feel no more responsible for a porn star unhappiness than I do a waiter's or a garbageman's. I am not going to go around ASSUMING every particular person is being somehow exploited. Show me the evidence of a particular case, convince me beyond a reasonable doubt, and hell I'll be on your side. Otherwise, I'll live my life, and they can live theirs.

luvluv · 06-07-2002, 06:20 PM

That's a little convienient Mad, and more than a little dishonest. If there are signs that have been clinically diagnosed as a result of repeated clinical observation to be indicative of deeper pathologies, then one would have to assume that the pathologies attend the act. A psychologist would probably ask the reverse: they would assume some form of pathology in extroidinarily promiscuous women unless they had proof otherwise.

Of course it's awfully convienient for us because, of course, the porn star is unlikely to ever seek out analysis, and even if she does, we are unlikely to ever be privy to the results... which gives us an easy out, doesn't it?

SanDiegoAtheist · 06-07-2002, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv:

Sex means something different to women than it does to men. Again, this is not just a Christian opinion this is the opinion of trained psycholgists who have empirically studied human sexuality. You might not care what psychologists think but you must admit that what their research has borne out is probably accurate.

LadyShea just contradicted your POV here...and given that she happens to actually BE a woman, I find that rather convincing.

In addition, I've known quite a few women, who, like LadyShea, are perfectly able to seperate sex and love. Perhaps it's got something to do with HOW THEY WERE BROUGHT UP?

If one is raised in an environment where, as a female, one was taught from a very young age that sex was unacceptable outside of the constraints of marriage (or a meaningful relationship), then yes, I can see that that person might indeed have a problem seperating sex and love.

Me? I was taught that sex & love were two different things. I've had no problem at all differentiating the two. As a male, I think this is a common attitude that is taught to boys growing up, and one that is less frequently taught to women...which would explain the psychological studies. If more women were taught that sex and love were not necessarily intertwined, perhaps this would change. In an age of effective birth control, and taught safe sex, I really think this is simply an example of religion being terribly overprotective of women, and like usual, resisting change with every weapon in their arsenal.

Frankly? I think of sex as a fun sport. Love is a wonderful adjunct to it, and makes the act both more meaningful and more enjoyable - but love also would make a game of CHESS more meaningful and more enjoyable.

The two aren't the same, medieval mores notwithstanding.

Cheers,

The San Diego Atheist

luvluv · 06-07-2002, 06:26 PM

"BTW, what is your speculation on the motivations of exotic dancers, or fetish wear models, or Men's Magazine models....are they also no different than prostitutes (as you seem to think porn actor=hooker)....why are you lumping these things together? The "sex industry" runs the gambit from tame to freaky, should they not be separate entities?"

I believe that we are entering into pathological behavior when the women actually engage in sex with scores of strangers. That's when I would start to believe that there is something deeper going on. The other women I think are just selling themselves short in taking demeaning careers, but they probably haven't crossed the line into doing something destructive yet. Of course there are probably some women who like dancing and like the power to make men drool, but I would attribute that to insecurity (the same motive that would make a man want to impress women with how much money he has). It's not necessarily pathological but I wouldn't consider any women who constanlty sought out sexual attention as indicative of a fully emotionally mature human being.

And I know enough about the porn industry to know there is a LOT of cross-pollination between prostitutes and porn-stars. Many porn stars are former prostitutes, and many prostitutes occasionally engage in the "amatuer" porn industry. The distinction is not as clean as you make it out to be.

[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]

luvluv · 06-07-2002, 06:32 PM

That's fine San Diego, but there are people who have studied sexual behavior and they would disagree with you. So, by all means don't take my word for it.

We aren't talking about someone experiencing a bout of physical desire and gratifying it outside of the context of a committed relationship.

We are tallking about women engaging in sexual behavior in ludicrous excess of their actual appetites in a roomfull of strangers.

You guys are just swapping myths at this point. This site has a supposed adherance and respect for empirical evidence. Well, in this case, all the evidence that I am aware of supports my position. I am not asking you to take my word for it over LadyShea's, I'm asking you to take the position of learned men who have studied human behavior over decades over pop culture euphimisms.

tronvillain · 06-07-2002, 06:38 PM

Uh, I did have another post there you know.

Viti · 06-07-2002, 06:41 PM

Again, you spout studies and whatnot, have you ever spoken to any of these people? I was an exotic dancer for two years. I made alot of money, set my own hours, spent my days talking to people and listening to music in 8 hours I maybe spent two of them topless...any medically trained person on this board (and we have a few) will tell you I am a pretty healthy and secure person.

luvluv · 06-07-2002, 06:45 PM

tron I don't know quite what to make of you. It sounds like you are saying even if these women are in pain and are hurting themselves, that you don't care. I don't know if there's anything else that can be said on the subject.

SanDiegoAtheist · 06-07-2002, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv:
That's fine San Diego, but there are people who have studied sexual behavior and they would disagree with you. So, by all means don't take my word for it.

We aren't talking about someone experiencing a bout of physical desire and gratifying it outside of the context of a committed relationship.

We are tallking about women engaging in sexual behavior in ludicrous excess of their actual appetites in a roomfull of strangers.

You guys are just swapping myths at this point. This site has a supposed adherance and respect for empirical evidence. Well, in this case, all the evidence that I am aware of supports my position. I am not asking you to take my word for it over LadyShea's, I'm asking you to take the position of learned men who have studied human behavior over decades over pop culture euphimisms.

Did I, or did I not provide a reasonable explanation for my POV?

It will have a LOT to do with their upbringing, and what they are TAUGHT is right and wrong.

As far as I know, that IS the position of psychology on the issue of sexuality...that boys and girls are SOCIALIZED differently, and therefore have a different view of sexuality.

It's not something that is INHERENT in males vs. females - it has to do with a very old double standard in both teaching and applying morality...one that was understandable prior to effective birth control techniques, but appears to me to be a bit outdated these days.

I've known more than a few women that seperate love and sex quite effectively - and this is from personal experience mind you. Of course there are going to be those that are f-ed up, but that will be true of anything. I've noted that the ones that tend to be the MOST f-ed up about sex though, are those who were raised in a strong religious environment.

My last long term relationship was with a woman who was brought up in a relatively secular household (sort of new agey...parents were ex-hippies). Having known her BEFORE we got involved, I can safely say that she was perfectly fine going out and getting herself laid when she felt the desire to. On the other hand, when we were together, and in love, it lent much more meaning to everything we did together...and sex wasn't an exception to this. To date (and having known this person now for over 10 years, we are still good friends even after deciding that we weren't going to succeed as a couple), she's one of the healthiest, happiest people that I have ever met.

To sum up...I am absolutely certain that the majority of women today DO have a hard time seperating love and sex, but look beyond that and see if there is in fact a REASON why they do. It appears very very likely given my experience, and those of others that I know, that that reason is due to a double standard in socialization - something that NOT all people have been 'socialized' into.

Is the porn industry filled with healthy happy people today? Probably not (although, having once met Nina Hartley, I can definitely say there are at least a FEW people in it who certainly SEEM very happy and healthy) - but as several have pointed out before on this thread, this is certainly at least partly to do with how our society VIEWS pornography and those who participate in it.

Cheers,

The San Diego Atheist

06-07-2002, 06:09 PM	#61
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	luvluv....prostitutes and porn actresses are not the same thing. In case you haven't noticed there are not millions of porn stars, you are apt to see the same ones over and over unless you stick to "amateur". These people know each other in most cases, they are not sleeping with strangers off the street. My friend with the twins only does scenes with her husband or women she knows. BTW, what is your speculation on the motivations of exotic dancers, or fetish wear models, or Men's Magazine models....are they also no different than prostitutes (as you seem to think porn actor=hooker)....why are you lumping these things together? The "sex industry" runs the gambit from tame to freaky, should they not be separate entities? [ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: LadyShea ]</p>

06-07-2002, 06:26 PM	#65
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	"BTW, what is your speculation on the motivations of exotic dancers, or fetish wear models, or Men's Magazine models....are they also no different than prostitutes (as you seem to think porn actor=hooker)....why are you lumping these things together? The "sex industry" runs the gambit from tame to freaky, should they not be separate entities?" I believe that we are entering into pathological behavior when the women actually engage in sex with scores of strangers. That's when I would start to believe that there is something deeper going on. The other women I think are just selling themselves short in taking demeaning careers, but they probably haven't crossed the line into doing something destructive yet. Of course there are probably some women who like dancing and like the power to make men drool, but I would attribute that to insecurity (the same motive that would make a man want to impress women with how much money he has). It's not necessarily pathological but I wouldn't consider any women who constanlty sought out sexual attention as indicative of a fully emotionally mature human being. And I know enough about the porn industry to know there is a LOT of cross-pollination between prostitutes and porn-stars. Many porn stars are former prostitutes, and many prostitutes occasionally engage in the "amatuer" porn industry. The distinction is not as clean as you make it out to be. [ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]</p>

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-07-2002, 06:12 PM	#62
MadMordigan Beloved Deceased Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 2,704	Perhaps your sexual technique differs from mine, but having sex and opening fire in public ain't even the same sport. People do stupid things all the time. I feel no more responsible for a porn star unhappiness than I do a waiter's or a garbageman's. I am not going to go around ASSUMING every particular person is being somehow exploited. Show me the evidence of a particular case, convince me beyond a reasonable doubt, and hell I'll be on your side. Otherwise, I'll live my life, and they can live theirs.

06-07-2002, 06:20 PM	#63
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	That's a little convienient Mad, and more than a little dishonest. If there are signs that have been clinically diagnosed as a result of repeated clinical observation to be indicative of deeper pathologies, then one would have to assume that the pathologies attend the act. A psychologist would probably ask the reverse: they would assume some form of pathology in extroidinarily promiscuous women unless they had proof otherwise. Of course it's awfully convienient for us because, of course, the porn star is unlikely to ever seek out analysis, and even if she does, we are unlikely to ever be privy to the results... which gives us an easy out, doesn't it?

06-07-2002, 06:32 PM	#66
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	That's fine San Diego, but there are people who have studied sexual behavior and they would disagree with you. So, by all means don't take my word for it. We aren't talking about someone experiencing a bout of physical desire and gratifying it outside of the context of a committed relationship. We are tallking about women engaging in sexual behavior in ludicrous excess of their actual appetites in a roomfull of strangers. You guys are just swapping myths at this point. This site has a supposed adherance and respect for empirical evidence. Well, in this case, all the evidence that I am aware of supports my position. I am not asking you to take my word for it over LadyShea's, I'm asking you to take the position of learned men who have studied human behavior over decades over pop culture euphimisms.

06-07-2002, 06:38 PM	#67
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Uh, I did have another post there you know.

06-07-2002, 06:41 PM	#68
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	Again, you spout studies and whatnot, have you ever spoken to any of these people? I was an exotic dancer for two years. I made alot of money, set my own hours, spent my days talking to people and listening to music in 8 hours I maybe spent two of them topless...any medically trained person on this board (and we have a few) will tell you I am a pretty healthy and secure person.

06-07-2002, 06:45 PM	#69
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	tron I don't know quite what to make of you. It sounds like you are saying even if these women are in pain and are hurting themselves, that you don't care. I don't know if there's anything else that can be said on the subject.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.