Freethought & Rationalism Archive

trunks2k · 03-10-2002, 07:49 PM

At a different board I stumbled into a discussion on morality with people. I said this:

Quote:

PM: I fully understand that religion shapes people's moral codes, and that is what I have a big problem with I'm talking more about dogmatic religions like Christianity, Islam because there are religions out there that value questioning things. There should be an are other answers to what is "right" and "wrong" than "because God said so." In fact morality should never be judged by that standard. I think that morality should be judged by what affect it has on the society around you. If your actions hurt society or other people, then that set of morals are bad. Hiding behind "god said so" often causes a very bad "I'm right about this and there's no question about it" behavior and that has grave consequences. It hinders the development of society greatly. If you have a specific moral code, in this world of people with extremely different belief systems (or lack of belief system) you absolutly must be able to back it up with more than "because god said so." When you say that, you are making a bold and unsupported assumption, because how do you know if the god you worship is the "right" one, or even if there is any god at all? If you cannot find any other reason than that that portion of your moral code needs extreme examintation.
Most moral foundations laid down by religions are pretty universal such as don't kill anyone. That moral part of the moral code has more backing to it than "because god said so." I could go into a long spiel about why it is morally wrong to do so, but it would take too long. Alternatly there are moral codes set down by religions that have been abandoned (by the majority of the religion at least) because it makes little sense and/or is impractical. For example, the book of Leviticus in the bible sets down a large amount of moral rules that says very directly you MUST follow; these include: not mixing fabrics (no 50% cotton, 50%nylon shirts), no eating shrimp, stoning adulterers to death, etc, etc. Do you follow either of those 3 (out of many more) rules? I doubt it, thus your "because god said so" defence is definatly not a valid argument.

I got this as a reply:

Quote:

You make a good point, trunks. In all truthfulness, however, I must point out that the idea that it is bad to hurt someone, itself, is a notion which has its origins in religion. In the past, people had no qualms about looting, rape, and murder. It was Christianity which first instilled in society the idea that all people are equal, and hence that it was bad to 'hurt' others. And, by your definition of morality, you can thus say that morality has its roots in Christian doctrine. Without Christianity, the idea of human rights would not exist.

Arg! I immediatly typed out this reply:

Quote:

OH my god I can't believe you said that! That is a load pure, stinking bullshit! Chrisitanity takes moral codes from several earlier religions (i.e. Zoroastrianism). People hardly just went around raping and killing people and had no qualms about it. It's seen in civilizations way way before Christianity even existed. And the whle "golden rule" thing was brought up by Confucious thousands of years before Christ. Take a look at Greek Mythology, killing and raping and the like are generally condemned. And one passage of the bible states that if a man should rape and impregnate an unmarried version, BOTH of them should be stoned to death.

In all seriousness I would like you to visit the bulletin boards at infidels.org and see post what you just said to me. They will give you much better reasons than I ever could on why that is a bunch of BS.

uhcord · 03-10-2002, 08:26 PM

If you decide to reply agian, just add in that christanity opposed the abolishment of slavery, opposed equal rights among women and blacks, and currently is opposing equal rights among homosexuals. Get some bible quotes and links ready to post also, since the person will most likely not believe you.

There is nothing much else you can do ....

Shake · 03-13-2002, 09:49 AM

... and in some cases still opposes equal rights for women (the can't serve in the Catholic clergy).

There is a local case where this woman was ordained in a breakaway church that considers itself Catholic, but the local Bishop (at the request of still higher-ups, no doubt) forbade any other local Catholic priests from even attending her ordination or face reprisals.

Your arguments do have some holes to be sure, but I agree with your general idea. Keep it up!

ju'iblex · 03-13-2002, 02:44 PM

i just want to add that it wasnt such a good idea to get so heated up like that in your reply. Offending people isnt the best idea when you want them to respond (so you can poke more holes at them). Although i do agree, that was bs.

Corwin · 03-13-2002, 03:09 PM

I think you'd be surprised.

Especially when dealing with fanatical types, anger can be a POTENT weapon. If you're dealing with fundies, using terms like 'invisible sky fairy' or 'overbearing evil tyrant surrogate abusive father figure' in reference to their God really annoys them... a lot. When they're really annoyed, they lose control and show their true colors.

It's useful for dealing with the sort of 'stealth fundies' that the Christian Coalition has been turning out for some time in the States. (Background for the furriners...

Ralph Reed quietly endorsed what he called 'guerilla christianity,' or running for office without letting on that you were a CC member/rabid fundamentalist christian so that you could get elected.... once you were elected, it was too late for anyone to do anything about it.)

ju'iblex · 03-13-2002, 08:47 PM

fair enough, i suppose it depends on the person though. i try to avoid it myself, i think it helps extend the idea that atheists are only interested in confrontation and will stoop to name calling, not real arguments.

Bree · 03-13-2002, 09:42 PM

That's why you need a sock puppet!

trunks2k · 03-14-2002, 05:35 AM

I didn't make fun of him or call him names. I just said his comment was a blatent pile of bullshit and it saddened me to hear it coming from anyone because it is so full of BS. I don't call people names, but I point out bullshit when I see it.

beachbum · 03-14-2002, 07:30 AM

trunks2k

Right on. Call a bullshit a bullshit. And a bullshitter a xian.

Wonder how they can figure their god id so freakin' moral when there are so many episodes in the OT where he demands that entire countries be wiped out and the virgins be kept for the conquerors use. Thats pretty moral. Here in merica we call that child abuse and murder. God doesn't seem to be bothered tho'.

SharonDee · 03-14-2002, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by trunks2k:
<strong>I don't call people names, but I point out bullshit when I see it.</strong>

That's all well and good if your mission is to point out bullshit. But if you want people to listen to you and understand why you think it's bullshit, perhaps you'd like to tone it down.

Believe me, this is a sermon I preach to myself with varying degress of success. Many of them have already fallen for the all-atheists-are-evil schtick; I see no reason to reinforce it.

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03-10-2002, 08:26 PM	#2
uhcord Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Somewhere Posts: 1,158	If you decide to reply agian, just add in that christanity opposed the abolishment of slavery, opposed equal rights among women and blacks, and currently is opposing equal rights among homosexuals. Get some bible quotes and links ready to post also, since the person will most likely not believe you. There is nothing much else you can do ....

03-13-2002, 09:49 AM	#3
Shake Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Folding@Home in upstate NY Posts: 14,394	... and in some cases still opposes equal rights for women (the can't serve in the Catholic clergy). There is a local case where this woman was ordained in a breakaway church that considers itself Catholic, but the local Bishop (at the request of still higher-ups, no doubt) forbade any other local Catholic priests from even attending her ordination or face reprisals. Your arguments do have some holes to be sure, but I agree with your general idea. Keep it up!

03-13-2002, 02:44 PM	#4
ju'iblex Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Sydney Australia and beyond the realms of Gehenna Posts: 6,035	i just want to add that it wasnt such a good idea to get so heated up like that in your reply. Offending people isnt the best idea when you want them to respond (so you can poke more holes at them). Although i do agree, that was bs.

03-13-2002, 03:09 PM	#5
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	I think you'd be surprised. Especially when dealing with fanatical types, anger can be a POTENT weapon. If you're dealing with fundies, using terms like 'invisible sky fairy' or 'overbearing evil tyrant surrogate abusive father figure' in reference to their God really annoys them... a lot. When they're really annoyed, they lose control and show their true colors. It's useful for dealing with the sort of 'stealth fundies' that the Christian Coalition has been turning out for some time in the States. (Background for the furriners... Ralph Reed quietly endorsed what he called 'guerilla christianity,' or running for office without letting on that you were a CC member/rabid fundamentalist christian so that you could get elected.... once you were elected, it was too late for anyone to do anything about it.)

03-13-2002, 08:47 PM	#6
ju'iblex Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Sydney Australia and beyond the realms of Gehenna Posts: 6,035	fair enough, i suppose it depends on the person though. i try to avoid it myself, i think it helps extend the idea that atheists are only interested in confrontation and will stoop to name calling, not real arguments.

03-13-2002, 09:42 PM	#7
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	That's why you need a sock puppet!

03-14-2002, 05:35 AM	#8
trunks2k Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 6,997	I didn't make fun of him or call him names. I just said his comment was a blatent pile of bullshit and it saddened me to hear it coming from anyone because it is so full of BS. I don't call people names, but I point out bullshit when I see it.

03-14-2002, 07:30 AM	#9
beachbum Beloved Deceased Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cocoa Beach, FL Posts: 864	trunks2k Right on. Call a bullshit a bullshit. And a bullshitter a xian. Wonder how they can figure their god id so freakin' moral when there are so many episodes in the OT where he demands that entire countries be wiped out and the virgins be kept for the conquerors use. Thats pretty moral. Here in merica we call that child abuse and murder. God doesn't seem to be bothered tho'.

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