Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jamie_L · 11-01-2002, 04:49 AM

SOMMS:

You still have not addressed this issue of people who do honestly seek god but end up not believing. Many of these people are honest believers for years, yet eventually conclude they were wrong.

How do you explain this? Surely these people had the right attitude.

Jamie

Hawkingfan · 11-01-2002, 06:35 AM

Mr. Satan....sonatas,

If there was such "overwhelming evidence" of the existence of a God, what would it matter what one's attitude was? Let's see this "evidence" and my knee will bow (whether I like it or not).

Hawkingfan · 11-01-2002, 06:37 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas:
[qb]Gang,

I had a quick question I wanted to get the atheists perspective on...

What if ones revelation of God is dependent upon their attitude toward God?

What if ones revelation of facts is dependent upon their attitude toward facts? There are no facts that reveal the existence of a God. He cannot be seen. He cannot be heard. The only "evidence" that a Christian gives over to a non-theist is the Bible, a book that is easily proved to be contrived from the mind of human beings. Some Christians (not all) believe in miracles and offer it as proof. I have yet to see anyone perform a miracle that wasn't disproven. If you do know someone who can perform miracles, there is a miracle testing facility run by the James Randi Foundation at <a href="http://www.randi.org." target="_blank">www.randi.org.</a> It offers 1 million dollars to anyone who can prove they can perform miracles under terms agreed upon by the testing facility and the individual making the claim. There has yet to be anyone in the long history of the organization to win the prize. What a shame. They've even tested the success of prayers and faith. The results, of course, were not so good for Christians.

[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: Hawkingfan ]

Goliath · 11-01-2002, 07:09 AM

SOMMS,

Quote:

Closed attitude => no evidence for God

Please prove that this implication holds, or retract your argument.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Keith Russell · 11-01-2002, 07:50 AM

Greetings:

Would I acknowledge 'God's' power and sovereign authority over everything'?

Goodness, no!

If 'God' could be proved to exist, 'His' 'power' would be measurable in the same way we can state the termperature of stars, or the gravitational forces that exist within black holes.

But, 'authority over everything'?

Human beings possess self-will and the capacity for reason, and thus it is wrong for anyone or anything to claim 'authority' over human beings. No amount of 'power' or 'knowledge' changes the fact of individual rights.

No, even if 'God' is proved to exist (an event which I believe to be impossible), I won't acknowledge 'His' sovereignity, or 'authority' over anything--myself most certainly included.

Keith.

Apikorus · 11-01-2002, 08:42 AM

"God reveals himself to those who seek Him with the proper attitude."

The problem here is that there is no a priori definition of what "a proper attitude" means. Oftentimes "a proper attitude" means "in such a manner as to result in a belief in God", thus reducing the entire statement to a tautology.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 11-01-2002, 09:02 AM

Philosoft,

Quote:

Originally posted by Philosoft:

SOMMS:
Well ok if you wish...

I suppose I could ask the exact same question to you.

YOU:What good does that do?

It illustrates what your attitude towards God is (my point of view). From your point of view it illustrates what your attitude towards God would be if he existed.

Quote:

Originally posted by Philosoft:

SOMMS:Suppose God did exist and he created everything. The cosmos, the universe, time and space, matter and energy. He tuned it for life and created mankind, created your family, created you.

Would you acknowledge God's sovereign power and authority over everything?

YOU:Not entirely.

This speaks for itself.

Then how could you ever form a relationship with God if you could not even acknowledge who/what he is? Again...hypothetically speaking.

Quote:

Originally posted by Philosoft:

Now then, what is the purpose of this line of questioning?

Simply this:
In all honesty...by your own admission you would not have a relationship with God even if you knew he existed.

If God embraces those who seek him and gives assurance and evidence to those who do...you would never know this.

It would be your attitude towards God that causes a 'lack of evidence'. It is your attitude towards God that keeps you from knowing him.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas ]

ELECTROGOD · 11-01-2002, 09:09 AM

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas,

I would not choose to have a "relationship" with god(s) if it/they existed. None of the myths have ever proved worthy of that.
I think that I can safely assume that you are arguing for the Christian god and I definately would not want to have a relationship with that screwed up storybook god if it existed (why would anyone?). I WOULD NOT acknowledge "God's" sovereign power and authority over everything in the universe even if it seemed that way...because the fact that I don't acknowledge that proves that it doesn't have power over ME or "everything". To continue to argue beyond this point on the matter is pointless, you have your answer and it disproves your position that your god can be considered the "sovereign power and authority over everything in the universe. If you do have evidence of your god then bring it on, this is what your position is about...if not then the pointless nature of your arguing amounts to nothing.

Utopia is a clever idea but I prefer reality.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 11-01-2002, 09:11 AM

SecularFuture,

Quote:

Originally posted by SecularFuture:
Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas,

If there was evidence to support a God concept, yes – I would acknowledge God's authority.

Ok. Fair enough.

What if this evidence was contingent upon you seeking God?

[NOTE]:This is not to say you would assume God exists. It just means you would have to honestly be open to the idea that he exists...and seek him.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Psycho Economist · 11-01-2002, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawkingfan:
Let's see this "evidence" and my knee will bow (whether I like it or not).

Don't you see?!?!?!?!? You can't see the evidence until you bow your knee! And you have to really mean it, too! This "whether I like it or not" attitude is what's causing all your problems, you willful, disobedient brat!

I'm sorry; I couldn't resist.

11-01-2002, 06:37 AM	#83
Hawkingfan Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,247	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas: [qb]Gang, I had a quick question I wanted to get the atheists perspective on... What if ones revelation of God is dependent upon their attitude toward God? What if ones revelation of facts is dependent upon their attitude toward facts? There are no facts that reveal the existence of a God. He cannot be seen. He cannot be heard. The only "evidence" that a Christian gives over to a non-theist is the Bible, a book that is easily proved to be contrived from the mind of human beings. Some Christians (not all) believe in miracles and offer it as proof. I have yet to see anyone perform a miracle that wasn't disproven. If you do know someone who can perform miracles, there is a miracle testing facility run by the James Randi Foundation at <a href="http://www.randi.org." target="_blank">www.randi.org.</a> It offers 1 million dollars to anyone who can prove they can perform miracles under terms agreed upon by the testing facility and the individual making the claim. There has yet to be anyone in the long history of the organization to win the prize. What a shame. They've even tested the success of prayers and faith. The results, of course, were not so good for Christians. [ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: Hawkingfan ]</p>

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11-01-2002, 04:49 AM	#81
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	SOMMS: You still have not addressed this issue of people who do honestly seek god but end up not believing. Many of these people are honest believers for years, yet eventually conclude they were wrong. How do you explain this? Surely these people had the right attitude. Jamie

11-01-2002, 06:35 AM	#82
Hawkingfan Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,247	Mr. Satan....sonatas, If there was such "overwhelming evidence" of the existence of a God, what would it matter what one's attitude was? Let's see this "evidence" and my knee will bow (whether I like it or not).

11-01-2002, 07:50 AM	#85
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: Would I acknowledge 'God's' power and sovereign authority over everything'? Goodness, no! If 'God' could be proved to exist, 'His' 'power' would be measurable in the same way we can state the termperature of stars, or the gravitational forces that exist within black holes. But, 'authority over everything'? Human beings possess self-will and the capacity for reason, and thus it is wrong for anyone or anything to claim 'authority' over human beings. No amount of 'power' or 'knowledge' changes the fact of individual rights. No, even if 'God' is proved to exist (an event which I believe to be impossible), I won't acknowledge 'His' sovereignity, or 'authority' over anything--myself most certainly included. Keith.

11-01-2002, 08:42 AM	#86
Apikorus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,396	"God reveals himself to those who seek Him with the proper attitude." The problem here is that there is no a priori definition of what "a proper attitude" means. Oftentimes "a proper attitude" means "in such a manner as to result in a belief in God", thus reducing the entire statement to a tautology.

11-01-2002, 09:09 AM	#88
ELECTROGOD Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: GR, MI USA Posts: 4,009	Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas, I would not choose to have a "relationship" with god(s) if it/they existed. None of the myths have ever proved worthy of that. I think that I can safely assume that you are arguing for the Christian god and I definately would not want to have a relationship with that screwed up storybook god if it existed (why would anyone?). I WOULD NOT acknowledge "God's" sovereign power and authority over everything in the universe even if it seemed that way...because the fact that I don't acknowledge that proves that it doesn't have power over ME or "everything". To continue to argue beyond this point on the matter is pointless, you have your answer and it disproves your position that your god can be considered the "sovereign power and authority over everything in the universe. If you do have evidence of your god then bring it on, this is what your position is about...if not then the pointless nature of your arguing amounts to nothing. Utopia is a clever idea but I prefer reality.

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