diana

This may have been answered, but I thought I'd toss my $.02 into the pot...

Are all religions true? If no (and I strongly suspect, for some reason, this is what you'll say--I'm psychic that way), then all of those "false religions" out there created their own meaning, didn't they?

Or perhaps only agnostics and atheists create their own meaning. Believers aren't that original; they depend on what's been handed down to them from whoever came before, all of them saying, "Why would all these people believe/die for their beliefs if it weren't true?"

Here's the $10,000 question, though: what makes you so cock-sure that your religion is any different?

I submit to you that you haven't created your own reason to live; you've merely copied someone else's idea.

Plaigerist.

d

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: diana ]</p>

Mageth

I have one life. I can choose to:

1) use it finding my meaning "serving" a being who can't be seen, heard, smelled, touched or tasted (unless you believe in transsubstantiation ), who I can only find out about in a 2000-year-old book of questionable provenance and filled with fantastical, unverifiable stories, or from others' subjective interpretation of the book (and there are countless thousands of these), and who, according to the book and various of its interpretations, considers me guilty from conception and "unrighteous" and wants me to ask for mercy and forgiveness for something I didn't do and so become a "slave" to christ so I can spend eternity giving glory to a god who condemns billions to eternal suffering. (not to mention give him 10% of my income)

2) find meaning in what I can see, hear, smell, touch and taste, and in relationships with real people.

Umm...hard choice...I think I'll go with #2.

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

KweschunThEAnserz

I'll take note of that.

I apologize, I figured this subject would be on this site somewhere (I'm still rather new) Where would you suggest I start to get personal input on these questions that are apparently frequently asked? I really don't want to be redundant and waste space on here, I just need a point in the right direction, sorry..

are you referring to the scriptures that talk about works?

a belief with a personal forgiving merciful God who sent his son to die for us and whom fearing is the beginning of all wisdom...this has been done before? I know Hinduism's roots are of the oldest but know none of which parallel Christianity and the Bible. Please tell me what you mean by "snake-oil aggrandizement." (yes, surprisingly I haven't heard of this phrase )

Where does the Bible say this? Or is this an assumption based on what the Bible says about our bondage to sin?

If you don't have any reasons, then are you admitting that you're nothing more than an accident of the universe, and that you're existance does not have a point? I was originally respondig to QueenofSwords when she said "If, on the other hand, you believe that your life does have meaning and that there are things you can do to improve the world, then the self-fulfilling prophecy applies again." What meaning and Why?

Hey I'm a damned sinner!
You said we find meaning in ourselves, but thats not the self delusion your talking about, right?

Probably not, I'm under the delusion that God's love is meaningful to me, remember?
So as humans, we all value everything different, all create our own "self-value?"

I'm assuming that since value judgements and meaning are from ourselves, then so is good and bad, right? Is that not sociopathic behavior or is that something else? Why do I not take responsibility just like you?

Can you define the original god? I'm not familiar with it (suprised you again didn't I)

I dont believe in a being I CAN'T know, otherwise my belief would have been gone pretty fast here
"meaning" could mean many things but in this case I meant meaning in our lives. The reason why we don't give up in life I guess can be derived from what our meaning is. Obviously to me meaning comes from God, er um,#2 and #3 AHYH ASR AHYH and Jesus.
If you can explain how the "ineffable" can possibly be a source of "meaning" and then pin that ineffable source down to any one definable quality that is innate instead of imagined, then perhaps you'd have an argument.

Until then, we all share the same sense of meaning; that which we personally apply and agree upon. You know, just like your cult elders when they formed the canon you call the New Testament?

[/QUOTE]
Anything ineffable cannot be scientific, so that argument would be impossible, right? Science would prevent me from doing so and since science is what governs atheism, then I'm out of luck on that one (Fooked!)
No we do not share the same meaning. The golden rule is not the Bible's purpose. I don't even believe there's a point in the golden rule without the Bible.

Oh you mean Jesus (God) sacrificing to God?
Do you mean God sacrificing FOR us?
Well I think the original poster was questioning what did God really sacrifice. If I tell you the meaning behind it, it won't accomplish anything. I wanted to know what other atheists thought would be a good sacrifice that God could make for us.

If you can't help being negatively sarcasitc, please don't post, I really just wanted to know what atheists think so I can understand. If I was completely delusional, I wouldn't be here looking for truth now would I? I do now wish to criticize what you believe or insert my beliefs as fact, I just want to switch shoes and try to look at the world the way an atheist does, just as I have been doing with many kinds of beliefs. I'm sure you're not trying to be negative, I just don't want to be shoved aside and labled ignorant thats all.


[quote]
QueenofSwords:
understood!

Also understood! especially for a choleric

heh, I stayed one but always wondered....

actually I was referring to the accident that is Mankind and the earth as we know it.

But this mark you want to leave...will be forgotten, I mean eventually. Not to say that what you do doesn't mean anything (in factI'd like to know what kind of songs you write!) but over time... I guess I'm asking what is the driving force and the reason behind it for your positive outlook on life?

good neither do I. But I'm not really able to comfort myself that well either. oh, comfort means comfort. You're having a rough time? comfort is feeling better about it. Right..?

I meant "we" as in everyone. someone else created the meaning but wouldn't that still be "us" as in mankind creates their own meaning?

My name's question the answers, not the other way around, I wish I could answer most of them. But I'm actually here to help rememdy that. I mean if real truth lies with what you all believe, then this is where I should be right, asking questions about your answers.

jdawg2

hmm...forgive me if I've missed something, but I don't think any Christians have answered the question, as far as, "What did god lose (sacrifice) by all of this?" I still don't understand how an infinte, eternal, creator of the universe "dies". Either he's dead or he isn't, right? And if he is dead, then that means he has no effect on this world (which makes a hell of a lot more sense), and if he isn't dead, then he sacrificed nothing. Seems pretty basic to me.

Once again, this seems to be the most basic flaw in the whole system. Let's not even get into the whole idea of how having your innocent son murdered is a "loving sacrifice"...

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by KweschunThEAnserz:
<strong>actually I was referring to the accident that is Mankind and the earth as we know it.</strong>

The evolution of the human species was not all that accidental. Animals that are able to manipulate their environment and band together for mutual protection may have an advantage over animals without large brains, opposable thumbs, etc.

As for the earth as we know it, well, that "accident" was formed by the laws of physics and chemistry, so I'm not sure if you can call it a complete accident.

<strong>But this mark you want to leave...will be forgotten, I mean eventually.</strong>

How far in the future do you define "eventually" to be? And how do you know that a mark I leave will be forgotten?

<strong>Not to say that what you do doesn't mean anything (in factI'd like to know what kind of songs you write!) but over time... I guess I'm asking what is the driving force and the reason behind it for your positive outlook on life?</strong>

I write bits and pieces of songs and poetry for my novels, of which there are four.

My driving force is a love of the good things in life and an enjoyment of what the world has to offer. As for why I have a (largely) positive outlook on life, why not? I have a family and friends, I write books and stories, I'm young and spry and I eat trolls for breakfast. These are all good things.

<strong>But I'm not really able to comfort myself that well either. oh, comfort means comfort. You're having a rough time? comfort is feeling better about it. Right..?</strong>

OK, I largely agree with that definition, and I'd comfort myself by reading a book where someone is much worse off than I am.

<strong>I meant "we" as in everyone. someone else created the meaning but wouldn't that still be "us" as in mankind creates their own meaning?</strong>

"The man and his religion are one and the same thing. The unknown exists. Each man projects on the blankness the shape of his own particular world-view. He endows his creation with his personal volitions and attitudes. The religious man stating his case is in essence explaining himself. When a fanatic is contradicted, he feels a threat to his existence; he reacts violently."

"Interesting!" declared the fat merchant. "And the atheist?"

"He projects no image upon the blank whatever. The cosmic mysteries he accepts as things in themselves; he feels no need to hang a more or less human mask upon them. Otherwise, the correlation between a man and the shape into which he molds the unknown for greater ease of manipulation is exact." (Jack Vance : Planet of Adventure)

<strong>My name's question the answers, not the other way around, I wish I could answer most of them. But I'm actually here to help rememdy that. I mean if real truth lies with what you all believe, then this is where I should be right, asking questions about your answers. </strong>

Very few people are willing to put up with a one-way street for long. If I keep answering your questions, it's only fair that you at least try to answer mine. They were, after all, about Christianity; surely you could search for the answers in your church or bible or at least from your god.

I do appreciate the courtesy you have shown so far, but I like a little give-and-take, not just me answering question after question.

KweschunThEAnserz

QwueenofSwords:
You're right and I apologize for neglecting this.

You're asking if these people would go to hell? It really depended on the person. If they UNDERSTOOD what what being said to them so that they were no longer ignorant, and freely rejected God, then they would be held accountable. However the innocent are not accountable and therefore are not rejecting God. So, most likely in your story, both examples, the people in question would not be held accountable.I'm not saying that this is set in stone, its a personal, individual judgement for everyone. But like you said I will research more so that I will be prepared with better answers should this subject come up again.

Heh, umm, lets leave this one alone.

QueenofSwords, i'm trying to fit into this category of one who does use their own brains and judgement. I'm learning more and more everyday and it will take a lot of time for me to gather all the facts and weigh them with what I believe to be true. I'm trying to be as objective as possible and consider every argument (at least the ones that are serious and not just focused to insult me and what I believe in) This is why I'm asking these somewhat personal questions. No matter what anyone says, our attributes that make us personal beings are the things that govern our lives. Everything thats valuable to us is rooted in love, and everything included in this category. I believe science discredits love as just part of our survival, just a chemical reation that resulted from our origins which occured billions of years ago by chance. I want to understand how people view life with this belief and also weigh those things with what I know to be Love, which is (I believe) God created and God given.

I guess I meant that eveerything that we know came about by chance. Or is that not the view? Well I guess anything other than chance would mean purpose.

Well, lets say 39.5 million years from now, which is not that long, no? What I meant in this question is does it really matter what we do here on earth while we're here? I suppose the reason would be self created since our value of works are self create as well.

I'm a music creator not a song writer, I wish I was both! Thats great, I'll have to check your website out.

What DOES the world have to offer, meaning, other than personal relationships (of which good ones are rare) what life fulfillment can the world give to us without any catches?

Where someone is much worse off than you are? what do you mean?

Ah ha! results. insight from an atheist point of view. Thanks

I'm somewhat pressed for time so if there are things left unanswered let me know.


Posted by Monkeybot
"Cruci-fiction" *clever


Posted by diana
Ok I know I'm gonna dig a hole here, so prepare for burial: No all religions are not true because that would be contradictions of fundamental beliefs. Reasons why I've ruled out many religions is that they promote square cirlces (completely illogical systems), come from 5,000 other religions, or just don't have the level of reliabilty of sources to consider adopting. Now before you critcize me and say that My beliefs (bible based, trinity, you know) fall under the same errancies as those I just mentioned, please use your energy to be productive instead of insulting. Provide me with direction of my error so I can use my brain and consider your arguments.
I have research religions just as thoughroghly as I look into topics that are discussed on this forum and my research will never stop.

I don't believe that all other religions are false. I believe that each individual will be judged. I think many will not be "condemned" who are not in total agreement with my beliefs.However, I don't agree with the increasingly popular "all paths lead to the same place."

Isn't the notion that we all create our own meaning also something handed down? I find our meaning from someone who believes God has the meaning and you find your meaning from someone who believes we create our own. In the end aren't we all in the same category of creating our own meaning no matter what the source? That is in the global sense.

I would agree that a very stupid reason for following someone's belief.


I have many reasons, some of which are ineffable. Its something that you know and have experienced in a very real sense, like how you would experience the feeling around a loved one.
I look at other ways of living other than my own, and I see decay. I see lifetimes of temporary pleasure for long term consequences. I see emptiness and hopelessness. I see families grieve over the death of a loved one with absolutely no comfort. I see hard hearts...ok, I'm ranting. you see most of these reasons have nothing to do with the ongoing abyss of information that is argued over from every direction, each one held in highest regard by someone who considers these facts. Now, I agree that these things are important, and thats why I'm here to learn from everyone who's willing to help. however after all is said and done, we all go home to a personal life which deals with all these intangible things, and most would admit, they are the most important things to us, no matter how much we know.

....ok.


Posted by mageth:
Yeah thanks for reminding me, i'll be searching this forum to find proof of those questionable, unverifiable stories. believe me.

If I saw God that way, I too would have the same disdain. ----(oh...and um, I haven't been giving my %10 lately AHHHH!! God's wrath will surely consume me!)

Because science tells you that anything other than that is absurd, right?


jdawg2 posted:
Honestly this is a good question. I don't believe God can die, so if thats not possible, what is this sacrifice worth to God. I understand what the sacrifice did for us, that is I understand the reason behind the result, but I will definitely look into how it is an actual SACRIFICE that God made.
This would require a little time however, but I'll post as soon as I find something out. Christians, any input would be great!

Off to bed. Thanks for all your posts. But you're still all going to HELL, MWAHAHAHA!
(an attempt at humor)

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by KweschunThEAnserz:
<strong>QwueenofSwords</strong>

Now you're spelling my username like you spell yours?

Originally posted by me :

You replied :

But you do realize, don't you, that there is a difference between understanding something and believing it? For example, I understand that the Hindu gods were menaced by a terrible demon and therefore Durga gave rise to an aspect of herself which could defeat the demon (sort of like losing her temper, and that temper taking on an actual form). Do I believe it? No.

I think you're right in stating that your take on this matter is not "set in stone". While I certainly think you have a reasonable approach to the matter, I must ask if you have ever read Chick tracts, which make frequent appearances in the Humor forum (and which were instrumental in converting me to Christianity, I must add). In such stories, a person hears about the story of God and Jesus for the first time, and immediately believes the whole thing and is saved. In real life, I doubt such conversion would happen at once. Plus, I have been raised with exposure to different cultures and I'll tell you this : to a Muslim, Islam sounds much more reasonable than Christianity, to a Hindu, Hinduism makes more sense than other religions, etc.

My point is that a god with any sympathy/compassion should take into account the fact that it's very hard to suddenly believe something that contradicts what you've been hearing your whole life long.

Originally posted by me :

You replied :

Please accept my apology; I was being sarcastic after a lot of hearing that atheists can't be moral/can't have meaning in their lives.

Not only are you asking them, you stick around to listen to the replies and answer them. To me, that is impressive and shows that you really are serious about the questions.

No offence meant, but when I first saw your username, I really thought you were a troll.

OK, I promise not to say anything more about usernames.

I don't know if I'd agree with that last statement. Love of what? If I work hard to gain enough money to buy a new car, would that be out of love?

Hey, if something is identified as part of my survival, that's crediting, not discrediting.

But seriously, how did you expect science to regard love?

Um, what happened billions of years ago were :

1. formation of the universe
2. formation of solar system and Earth
3. evolution of single-celled life-forms

If by "our" you mean humans, then that occurred more like a few hundred thousand years ago.

As for love being solely a chemical reaction, well, I see it as more of a factor in the complex social network that enabled early humans to survive in hostile environments.

Straight to you from QoS's hindbrain : Chemical reaction exists. Chemical reaction is most likely caused by evolutionary drive to pass on genes. Chemical reaction drives body towards tall dark man.

Much later...

Evolutionary drive foiled once more by latex. Chemical reaction persists because, in the past, women nursing slow-to-develop infants needed the protection of men.

Leaving aside that tongue-in-cheek description, knowing that I am the product of evolution doesn't mean I don't value love. I see it as having a place in life - it is just not the be-all and end-all of my life. I view life pretty much the same way as I did before I became an atheist. I think about the future, worry about taxes, consider certain male types attractive, etc. Knowing that my emotions are due to synapses firing in my brain doesn't make them more or less important - though I have to say, knowing a little bit about neurobiology makes me even less likely to use drugs such as cocaine.

Well, tell me what you conclude after weighing my viewpoint.

Originally posted by me :

You replied :

The thing is, you''ll have to define what you mean by "chance". For example, one atom of oxygen always combines with two atoms of hydrogen to make water. This happens because of the atomic nature of oxygen and hydrogen.

So is it purposeful when an atom of O combined with two atoms of H to make H2O?

The formation of the earth had a lot to do with chemistry and physics. Chemistry and physics operate under certain laws : eg. positively charged ions attract negatively charged ions. Is this purpose?

It is chance that Earth ended up being the third planet from the sun, in a position to maintain liquid water, an atmosphere, etc. However, because of those factors, life-as-we-know-it developed. Was that chance?

Originally posted by me :

You replied :

Not that long? You must be a Galapagos tortoise.

But seriously, within fifty billion years, the entire Earth should be gone - and so will the human species if we don't get off it. My point is that maybe we shouldn't be hoping that any of our marks survive that far into the future.

Exactly. If a person thinks that it doesn't matter what she does on earth, and she then proceeds to kill several people for kicks, she will probably be killed or will spend the rest of her life in prison/on the run from America's Most Wanted. She will (most likely) not be happy, her family will be miserable, she is less likely to successfully pass on her genes, and few people will remember her with affection or respect.

If, on the other hand, she works in a hospital and saves lives, many people will be grateful to her, she'll certainly have a lot more safety and security and she'll have self-respect, which is not so easy to come by.

Which of these people's actions do you think will matter in a positive way? Which of them is likely to be happier and more successful in their community?

Pretty simple when you look at it that-a-way... and according to fundamentalist christianity, if the first woman accepts Jesus a day before her lethal injection, she should go straight to heaven. Whereas, if the second woman is a Buddhist, she'll burn in hell for all eternity.

You wrote :

You're a composer? What, like Enya?

Hope you enjoy the website.

Originally posted by me :

You replied :

My self-respect and peace of mind. That comes to me without any catch. If I behave in a way that is in accordance with my values, I am happy; if I don't, I'm not. Where's the catch in that?

And by "catches", do you mean things like : applying for a job and being turned down, or going on a date to be told that the other woman thinks your sister's hot? Well, that's part of life, right? If everything worked fine, we would be in heaven already, am I not correct?

Seriously, I take the rough with the smooth. If I instantly got every job I applied for, I would never learn persistence and dignity and fortitude. I would be like a spoiled child, expecting what I wanted when I wanted it. When you have to work hard for something, you appreciate it so much more than when it just falls into your lap from a tree.

Originally posted by me :

You replied :

Where a character has something very bad happening to them. It makes my problems seem so much better in comparison.

You also wrote :

Excellent! I must say, you are quite a change for the better from the usual interactions I have in the RRP forum.

And I thank you for addressing my questions.