Clara Listensprechen

Lots of Abrahamic religion discussion here, so long as you're into discussing Western Christianity. Not much on Eastern Christianity, though, I've noticed...and nothing recent on Islam. One would almost get the impression that even the non-Christians here only know the Christian leg of the Abrahamists.

Wassup with that????

Let's do Islam for a change. Here, this thread. How 'bout it?

Seraphim

I'm no Muslim but I live in a country that is majority is Muslims and I usually in debate with them on various topics in another forum.

What you want to know about?

Clara Listensprechen

Actually I'm wanting to find out what other II folk know about it, since it appears to be a topic nearly totally snowed under by discussions about Christianity. It's a subject I've done a lot of reading about, but I can guarantee you that what I've read is secular-historical in nature, some of which is "orientalist" sourced although I've taken that into consideration while reading.

I've compared what I've read to what I've found online and have found:

1) much detail contained in what I've read either lacking or glossed over.

2) preaching.

My interests lie in accurate (where possible) of historical detail, and realize what a monumental task that is given that it's of ancient Arabian habit to write history in terms of intricately florid poetry.

And you...?

Rousseau_CHN

more conservative than Christianity makes Islam much worse.

Nostalgic Pushhead

I'm taking an art of Islam class, but I don't know much about it.
Don't know anything about the Qu'ran, except they seem to like Mary.
Seems like a very sexist, war-mongering religion. Like some other one I can think of . I hate the fundamentalist version as much as I hate fundamentalist Christianity.

I have a tendency to respect other religions above Christianity, just because, I'm dumb that way. But Islam is closely related enough to get my ire.

But the art is cool!

Clara Listensprechen

Well, just as there are as many different versions of what caused the Roman Empire (unspecified era) to fall as there are different versions of "The Bible", there are also different accounts of the history of Islam, and I'm sure my take on it would make all people of any faith cringe, given my secular political angle of it.

I maintain that it's as flawed as Judaism and Christianity insofar as it's been inbred with politics; that insofar as I maintain that Paul hijacked Christianity from Peter's care, Abu Bekr hijacked Islam straight out of the hands of Mohammed, whose secular leanings didn't entirely object to what this military general decided to do with it, as Mohammed married his daughter when she was about 9 years old--a common political practice among kings & emperors to cement alliances. Nothing devine about that particular deal.

BUT!!! There are a lot of jackass preachers out there that maintain that Mohammed was a pedophile for marrying Aisha. Ole Clara here EMPAHTICALLY DENOUNCES this perversion of something even Christian rulers did, and if Mohammed was a pedophile for this, so were all those Christian rulers that did likewise.

I certainly echo the sentiment that the more conservative, the worse it is. However, some Muslims are more conservative than others, and one needs to make sectarian distinctions in order to cite specific conservative sects, distinguishable from the liberal ones like Bahai, for example (a type of Shiite sect). Agreed, also, that fundies of any sort are extremists no matter what the religion, as they have the arrogance to suggest that they're closer to God/Allah than the next guy because of their austerities. What these people are, are self-righteous.

And I'll certainly and emphatically agree about the art. Magnificent stuff, that.

Clara Listensprechen

........{crickets}.......

No further takers? Seraph, what's your info on the first for Califs? Maybe we can begin at the beginning here, since some of that remains at issue when it comes to understanding the differences between Sunni and Shiya. Sunni maintain that the Shiya are brothers and claim to not understand why they have such an ill opinion of Sunnis, when you'd think that all along the Shiya celebration of Ashura would give 'em a bit of a clue.

Ya think?

Anybody?

I've noticed that another person has started a thread on the beginning of Islam:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=50922

See you there.

hinduwoman

Clara, I am afraid you have been misinformed. Mohammed is not called a pervert for marrying Aisha only, nor did the marriage take place when she was 9. Actually he married her when she was six, but as you pointed out such state marriages are not uncommon and do not mean anything. However the marriage was consummated when she was 9.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, also Number 4915 and Number 4915
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. (according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging). They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death)

It is because Muhammad had sex, S-E-X, with a nine year old that he is called a paedophile.


The marriage did not begin as a political alliance as many apologetics tout. Bakr did not want to give her in marriage:
Sahih Bukhari 7.18
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

If the Hadiths are to be trusted Muhammad is a pervert:
Sahih Bukhari 9.140
Narrated 'Aisha:
Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her), and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' "

When someone dreams of a naked six year old and insists it is a sign from Allah to marry her, he is a paedophile.
Ancient cultures probably allowed such couplings, but that do not make them any more acceptable.

Muhammad is secular? He hallucinated that Gabriel gave him the One religion and died screaming "there shall be no two faiths in Arabia". Where are your sources that told you Muhammad had secular leanings?

Clara Listensprechen

Thank you for a most interesting post, as I've not read all there is to read in the varying sets of Hadiths. Although I've been very much aware that Aisha has her own set of Hadiths, which the Shiya dispute vigorously, and it's why I must insist on this political motive scenario I described in my earlier message.

I'm very much aware of how close Abu Bekr was to Mohammed, but that closeness was also shared by Ali, and it's the murders of both Calif Othman and of Ali that adds to the credibility of my characterization. Calif Omar was but one of Bekr's own generals. Omar and Bekr went on and developed into Sunni; Othman and Ali didn't, but the treachery involved with that was not forgotten by their people, who felt betrayed then and continue to feel this betrayal which wasn't mitigated by Hussain's later murder, again at the hand of a Sunni.

There's no burying the politics in the readings about Islam, and therein lies the source of the secular Mohammed. No one can tell me that the partner that got the biggest asset benefit from the marriage to Khadijah was not Khadija, but Mohammed. Seems to me that the secular side of Mohammed is pretty obvious--except for that charge of pedophelia...maybe. If as you've shown that he was a pedophile in whatever version of Hadiths you've got, I'd say that's even further proof of that matter.

hinduwoman

Politics I agree, but still I don't see how Muhammad could be secular. Can you clarify?