Buffman

So what are you claiming now? That Abe was a Christian who freed the Christian slaves from their Christian masters? That was mighty "white" of him.

Why don't you read the whole Lewis (1924) URL and really have a laugh for yourself. There was nothing better or easier to do than converting those intentionally uneducated African slaves into church-going Christians. Church was one of the few times that they could gather together and not have to be workinhg themselves into early graves. The Christian masters were scared to death of their slaves learning to read and write. If they could read and write they might begin to question why whites were the masters and blacks were their slaves...especially given that Jesus was a black man. (Do you have verifiable evidence that he wasn't? If you can claim that he was a son of a supernatural god without evidence, I can make him black without any. Just think! You worship a black man. Somehow that seems very fitting for you. Muhahahahahaha!)

Radorth

Er no, there are several other alternatives. I would call Lincoln even more enigmatic than Washington, but like Washington he may have walked the walk and not talked the talk.

You know, these "Christian" masters you keep talking about have virtually no support in the NT for their behavior. Did Paul ever say to beat slaves? Did he try to send slaves back to their masters? He did say for slaves to "obey your masters," but we have no reason to think he approved of slavery, or that a single apostle would have kept a slave themselves. So how do you know they were Christians, especially given the beliefs and actions of Quakers and Methodists who interpreted the NT so literally?

Christian "fundies" were freeing/hiding slaves while two of your "deist" heroes were still thinking about it. Therefore we see once again that it is Christians (and fundies at that) who were the social progressives. And thanks for another golden opportunity to point that out.


Oh I think they questioned that upon entering the ship, if not sooner. But you think they were a lot dumber than I do, obviously.

I'd read more atheist propaganda, but I always quit when I get to statements like that, especially from known revisionists like yourself who are always demanding proof they would never supply for any of their assertions.

But I suppose your world-view would crumble if you didn't take such unsupported nonsense by faith.

Oh man. The irony is gonna kill me one day.

Be quiet Fenton.

Rad

Vibr8gKiwi

Heh

Toto

There is support for slavery throughout the Bible.

(the Greek word doulos is variously translated "servant" or "slave", but you fire an employee who messes up, while masters beat a slave since slaves have no other incentive to perform.)

Those were Jesus' alleged words. Paul was more explicit:

Southern slave owners held that their system had Biblical approval, and that they represented true Christianity, and continued to through the 20th century (see Bible Quoter, Slavery Defender, Quits Race .

Modern Christians have learned to reject slavery and reinterpret the Bible verses that support it. But this was not the case in Lincoln's time. Check out this gem and this

Buffman

Er no, there are several other alternatives.

And the verifiable evidence that you offer for these unstated alternatives is.....? Lincoln was enigmatic[puzzling]? How so?

You know, these "Christian" masters you keep talking about have virtually no support in the NT for their behavior.

Oh! Have you just done away with the entire OT as divinely inspired? Just one Testament to go and you will be all the way home.

He [Paul] did say for slaves to "obey your masters," but we have no reason to think he approved of slavery, or that a single apostle would have kept a slave themselves.

What's this "we" reference? Have you read EPH 6:5-7 1 TIM 6:1; TIT 2:9 & 10? So, just as obviously, "we" have no reason to believe that Paul, or any of the other early Christians disapproved of the "institution" of slavery...now do "we?" I have just seen an entire Christian Protestant denomination finally denouce it [white superiority...apartheid] in South Africa.

Oh I think they questioned that upon entering the ship, if not sooner. But you think they were a lot dumber than I do, obviously.

And you seem unable to differentiate between educated and ignorant.

Oh man. The irony is gonna kill me one day.

The only irony about my suggesting that Jesus was a black man is that I don't even have verifiable evidence concerning the actual existence of the historical, biblical, Jesus in whom you place your conditioned faith beliefs. You certainly haven't provided any. The only verifiable evidence I have about your Jesus is that he didn't write anything. Perhaps he was "dumb" and it took the myth authors to smarten him up.

Radorth

From Buffman's site:

"Even those clergymen who claim that Lincoln accepted Christianity in the latter years of his life, admit that in early manhood he was an infidel. His first law partner, John T. Stewart, said: "Lincoln was an avowed and open infidel, and sometimes bordered on Atheism. He went farther against Christian beliefs, doctrines and principles than any other man I ever heard."

Rad: I see no evidence that he did not become one. There must not be any.

"The impression, now being created in the minds of our school children, that Lincoln's only sources of knowledge were the Bible and Pilgrim's Progress is, in view of the facts,..."

Rad: LOL!!! Oh please, give us an outake from two textbooks that say anything like that. Or shall we just take it by faith since atheists are automatically moe honest than anyone else?


"...a deliberate and malicious falsehood. "

Rad: No, I think his on statement is, and that we will never see any proof otherwise.

"Lincoln was a reader and lover of Voltaire, Volney and Paine, and was not satisfied with being enlightened himself, but informed others of what he had found out. He thought it miserly to keep that knowledge to himself and was zealous in his heresy. He argued and talked for that which he had discovered to be true. It is said that he never tired of reading Paine; and I ask, who does tire of reading him? Who can read the "Age of Reason" without being convinced by its logic?"

Rad: Apparently he later decided Paine was not the final authority on everything

"Oh, what a valuable, what a priceless copy of the "Age of Reason" it was that fell into the hands of Abraham Lincoln! The germ of Lincoln the Emancipator was planted when he read these liberty-loving books. And friends, as a gentle reminder, if you have a son whom you would like to see develop into another Lincoln, you cannot better equip him than by giving him the same mental food upon which Abraham Lincoln thrived. "

Rad: Ah yes, Read Paine, become President. Funny Paine couldn't even get into the Continental Congress.


"The use of the word 'God' has a thousand interpretations and does not reveal the religious belief of the person using that word. "

Rad: He also used "Saviour" and the "Lord" but I suppose they have a thousand interpretations as well.

"The manner in which Lincoln used the word "God" in his immortal papers should be sufficient proof that he had no faith in the generally accepted sense of that word. I think the following incident as related by Herndon should settle for all time the significance of the use of the word "God" by Lincoln. "No man had a stronger or firmer faith in Providence than Lincoln, but the continued use by him late in life of the word 'God' must not be interpreted to mean that he believed in a personal God. In 1854 he asked me to erase the word 'God' from a speech I had written and read to him for criticism, because my language indicated a personal God, whereas, he insisted, no such personality existed." "


Rad: Yeah, in 1854, and from a second hand account. Not too convincing in view of later statements


"Herndon goes farther and says: 'If Lincoln were asked whether he believed in God, he would have said: "I do not know that a God exists." "

Rad: The number of palm readers quoted at II is quite alarming. Well at least he didn't say "all those people who said he was not a Christian."

See my above first-hand quotes for more information. You can leave out the speech to the "Committee" from Baltimore, and still have no readon to think Lincoln was not God-fearing. he also makes many statements about how God directed him, which I will try to post later.

Rad

Buffman

From Buffman's site:

Try getting something right. Thank Toto for that particular URL. He posted it first. I just copied it because it was obvious you hadn't read it and I suspected that you would if you thought that I had posted it. Thank you for confirming my suspicion. (It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling knowing that you care.)

JohnR

Here are some that say while he was not religious he was very political.
http://showcase.netins.net/web/creat...hes/quotes.htm
"That I am not a member of any Christian Church, is true; but I have never denied the truth of the Scriptures; and I have never spoken with intentional disrespect of religion in general, or any denomination of Christians in particular."
--From the July 31, 1846 Handbill Replying to Charges of Infidelity
"I do not think I could myself, be brought to support a man for office, whom I knew to be an open enemy of, and scoffer at, religion."
--From the July 31, 1846 Handbill Replying to Charges of Infidelity

"The will of God prevails. In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, and one must be, wrong."
--From the September 1862 Meditation on the Divine Will

"I am very glad indeed to see you to-night, and yet I will not say I thank you for this call, but I do most sincerely thank Almighty God for the occasion on which you have called."
--From the July 7, 1864 Response to a Serenade

"If God now wills the removal of a great wrong, and wills also that we of the North as well as you of the South, shall pay fairly for our complicity in that wrong, impartial history will find therein new cause to attest and revere the justice and goodness of God."
--From the April 4, 1864 Letter to Albert Hodges

"We hoped for a happy termination of this terrible war long before this; but God knows best, and has ruled otherwise. We shall yet acknowledge His wisdom and our own error therein."
--From the September 4, 1864 Letter to Eliza Gurney

Radorth

No response from the skeptics, but given the dates, it is plain Lincoln changed his mind about some things.

He begins to use the phrase "the Lord" and "our Lord" as well later on. According to a Federer quote from his pastor, Phineas Gurley, (anecdotal) the death of Willie and a visit to the Gettysburg battle field led Lincoln to a "personal faith in Christ" in 1863.

Not much to convict him on.

Rad

Toto

Is this your source?

America's God and Country Encyclopedia of Quotations - Federer, William; (Editor)

Or this sermon by D. James Kennedy of Crystal Ridge Ministries - which cites Federer and David Barton?

Why should we treat this as credible?