Infinity Lover

When push comes to shove, we're free to think that we're not free to think. (In general or on specific matters.)
A suitable paradox I freely think.

Our minds are loose cannons up to some degree, and we're all inclined, up to some degree, to cling on to certain notions, and throughout life either do or don't find the courage to consider other perspectives.

To my humble opinion the term "freethinker" is to be used loosely by default.

Personally I've never to keen on labels, because they are so easely used as a lame excuse, for not having to get to know people better (or yourself for that matter).

But that's just the secular humanist in me

[ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: Infinity Lover ]</p>

Starboy

Maybe I am reading too much into the replies. Historically a freethinker has been a euphemism for atheist. One of the most notable American atheists was Mark Twain. He constantly referred to himself as a freethinker. It is commonly accepted in American culture that freethinker == atheist. Apparently what is present here is a small group of Christians that wish to think of themselves as freethinkers. If you were a deist then I might be able to accept it, but a Christian freethinker has got to be an oxymoron. My reasons for thinking this are simple; to be a Christian you must accept JC as your savior and accept that he died for your sins. As far as I am aware, this is not negotiable and thus is dogma. This one thing alone precludes a Christian from being a freethinker.

You are right; I am fascinated by this desire of Christians to be thought of as freethinkers. It reveals to me an unspoken dissatisfaction with the Christian faith.

Starboy

Starboy

HelenM, my point exactly. Even in jest you betray your point of view and it's limitations.

Starboy

Pseudonymph

I am a deist...well, that's how I see myself anyway.

I agree with your main idea...but I take issue in saying that going along with the whole Jesus thing makes you not a freethinker. I myself believe Jesus at least existed in that time and had some interesting ideas. I don't want to discount the historical aspect of the character.

My main issue with christians is that I don't think many of them have ever stepped back to seriously examine their faith and why they have it at all. Why believe something just becuase you have been taught it your whole life? If you're going to belive then BELIEVE with a clear head and an objective mind. And despite what many angry people say, I believe that it IS a possibilty!

HelenM

Yes, but why can't you turn that around and say "To be an atheist you must deny holding a belief that such a being as God exists. This is not negotiable and therefore it's dogma. Therefore atheists aren't freethinkers".

I think you're confusing the definition of a Christian with whether a Christian is a free-thinker or not.

My assumption all along in this thread has been that the original question that started it, didn't assume 'freethinker' was simply another word for atheist.

Regardless of whether some have used it that way, historically.

take care
Helen

HelenM

I agree that that can be the problem with 'freethinker' - however, I suppose any number of words could be used that way - as rhetoric with which to bash some other group over the head. The problem isn't the word so much as the way it's used.

Helen

Starboy

Hi SirenSpeak,

I agree, it has been my experience that any Christian that does seriously examine their faith ends up abandoning it. IMO to be a freethinker it is not enough to believe with a clear head and an objective mind. You must also be willing to question your beliefs and reject them at anytime in the future if so warranted, and there in lies the rub. If you are willing to reject your Christianity than how can you hold it in your heart? Christianity would have to be an act of mind and not the heart, and that is not what Christianity is all about. I would think that even HelenM would have to agree with that.

Starboy

Starboy

HelenM,

If that was what I thought you would be right. I refer to myself as an a-theist or non-theist if you will. I do not know for a fact that there is no god, nor do I claim to. My claim is that god is irrelevant. The only evidence for the relevancy of god it is not in god itself but in the thought of god in the minds of men. I do agree that atheist who will not consider the possibility that god exists are not free in their thinking. I am sure you would agree that a Christian who is willing to seriously consider that god did not exist was at least borderline non-Christian. As stated elsewhere, being a free thinker is not only about arriving at one’s conclusions freely but holding them freely as well, or accepting everything provisionally. When a Christian is asked to accept JC into their hearts, it is not intended for the acceptance to be tentative.

Starboy

Pseudonymph

Well when I examined my Christianity I pretty much lost belief in many aspects of it. Which is why I call myself a deist at this point. I agree that if most christians would really take a look at why they believe what they do, they would find that they have no idea why they say they believe in "God".

As far as my beliefs being under scrutiny....just being at this site makes me question my beliefs!



So I do not fear to have myself tested or my beliefs questioned...if I don't constantly seek answers, then I will never know if I am truly right with myself.

d'naturalist

For the sake of sanity, let's separate the two terms that are being confused here.

A free thinker (two words) is a person who thinks freely, comes to their own conclusions about things, has the ole free will functioning with vim and vigor (whoever they are).

A freethinker (one word), on the other hand, is someone who develops their own set of beliefs about the world based on experience & reason, independent of authority. In a way, 'freethinker' is synonymous with 'nonreligious'. A religious person's set of beliefs about the world are generally based on authority & tradition. For a religious person to consider themselves a freethinker, they would have to independently develop their own set of beliefs that almost exactly mirror those of an established religion. A neat trick, if you can pull it off.

Deists & Pantheists are often included among the lists of freethinkers because their belief in a god-being is basic or general enough to be the product of their own reasoning. When you start incorporating scriptures and preachers and mysterious voices from beyond, you are no longer creating your own beliefs. While religious folks may come to an independently rational conclusion that their particular god-being exists, the addition of the history, tradition, laws, commandments, and other elements that define their religion, eliminates the freethought from the process. They've at that point become adherents of an authoritative ideology created by someone else.

In a nutshell, a religious person can think freely and even rationally, but the majority of the things that they believe in are traditions & ideals that are TAUGHT to them. Free thinkers? Sometimes. Freethinkers? No.

That concludes this lecture, brought to you with care by the Professional Confusion Institute.