Pseudonymph

What do you think? What is a freethinker anyway? Do you believe that it's possible for someone to sit back and, after having logically looked at the evidence presented, and rationally coming to a conclusion...that that conclusion could be that there is a God of some sorts?

Ever since I've been at this forum, I've noticed the term freethinker to be used in somewhat of an elitist sense. As if to say, "I'm a freethinker, I think for myself, unlike these theist sheep".

I'll surely grant that a majority of religious subscribers probably haven't once stepped back and questioned why they believe what they do. But if they had done that....and you ended up talking to them about it, would you at least respect them a little more? Would they qualify as a freethinker for freely examining their heart, AND the evidence?

I ask because I have encountered a few people like this, and they have quickly earned my respect. And their viewpoint is not unlike that of my own. I'm sure you don't care to hear my life story but after doing as much objective studying and answer-seeking as I have done, I cannot bring myself to lack a belief, or straight out deny the existance of a God of some sort.

I almost have the reverse situation as many atheists. For much of my life I told myself I was an atheist becuase I felt like any belief in God would make me weak and stupid. But I couldn't deny myself forever.

I'm not saying I'm right or anything. This is simply a question I'm asking. Would someone like me be considered a freethinker? What do you think?

(please no flames about how dumb I am for even having a small belief in anything...this post was very hard for me to write. Many people around here know me, and know I'm somewhat of a deist, but others may not.)

Marz Blak

Your question is a good one, and I think anyone who would give you a hard time for asking it is an a**wipe.

Having said that, I do not know the dictionary definition of freethinker, but to me the term connotes someone who is willing to try his best to think as freely as possible--to entertain all possibilities, and to constantly look at his own beliefs for signs of creeping orthodoxy, conventionalism, or dogmatism--even while acknowledging that we as humans are inherently subject to such errors in thinking, and that we can never be certain we haven't fallen prey to one of them because we cannot be objective regarding our own thoughts.

So do I think it is possible to be a theist of some sort as well as a freethinker? I personally think it unlikely given my understanding of the issues and arguments, but I cannot rule it out--indeed, I think ruling it out would render me no longer a freethinker myself.

And I would of course be interested in hearing why you feel the way you do. Yours might be the argument to change my mind on the subject of belief!

[ September 26, 2002: Message edited by: Marz Blak ]</p>

Dianna

First, let me say that I'm glad you aren't calling yourself an atheist anymore. Being an atheist because you think believing in a god would make you weak and stupid is, in my opinion, a poor position to find yourself in. Atheism is simply lacking belief, not avoiding it to make yourself feel smart or independent. I do find it a tad difficult to believe that you chose to be an atheist and then chose to be a believer. It seems to me that we either do or don't believe. I'd be interested in your thoughts in that regard.

As to freethought, it is my understanding that the term refers to dogma-free thinking. Once your god-belief develops its own dogma, you are no longer a freethinker. Once you begin assigning attributes to your god, finding him revealed in holy books, or explaining to us how he would have us all live, you are no longer a freethinker.

Dianna.

K

I think many atheists are so because of a lack of evidence for theism. If I were presented with solid scientific proof of a god, I would believe. I don't think the term freethinker necessarily implies atheism. I do think that it does imply the use of reason in reaching conclusions. Therefore, I have no problem with a theist being called a freethinker - just as I have no problem with someone who believes in elves being called a freethinker. The only requirement is that they have solid reason and strong demonstrable evidence for holding those beliefs.

Philosoft

If "freethinker" entails considering the truth or falsity of propositions on the strength of their evidences, then the anti-evedential nature of supernatural propositions makes them difficult to reconcile with "freethinking." That said, I think it might be more accurate to use "freethought" to refer to a process, rather than use "freethinker" to refer to a person. It is possible to think "freely" about many natural propositions, while maintaining a narrow theistic faith that is incongruous with "freethought." Just because folks like HelenM, Bubba, Rev. Joshua, etc. hold a rather isolated theistic proposition to be true, does not mean they lose the ability to think "freely" 95% of the time.

Perchance

I haven't met any theist who could provide me with strong, solid, reasonable arguments as to why he or she believed. (Indeed, it seems most theists I encounter online are Fundy Clones, spouting the same lies, half-truths, and analogies over and over again). If I met such a theist, and if such a theist hadn't locked down his or her mind but continued considering propositions that might affect his or her religious beliefs, then I would call that person a freethinker.

In a way, though, a theist who was convinced that she had logical reasons to be right might become even more of a fundy than someone walking on faith; after all, she's used reason, how can she be wrong? (Not saying it would happen to everyone, but since I think fundamentalism is a state of mind that often happens to people who are pretty proud of their beliefs, I think it crosses religious boundaries).

-Perchance.

Amos

Does it really matter what "you call yourself?"
The term freethinker belongs to the Freeman who is himself. See the difference?

Atheists are impoverished believers much in the same way as mystics are enriched believers. Both have faith and doubt and are probably free from traditional religious doctrine but are still not free within their owm mind and so their thoughts are still influenced by their own dual existance.

The purpose of religions is to remove this dual nature from us and so to be a confirmed atheist is just our way of declining the opportunity to achieve this.

If we leave our religion to seek understanding (as did Siddharta) the end of religion will be our understanding of religion which is never theism nor atheism.

In the strict definition of freethinker there is no God because the freethinker is God.

This same is true with woman who is the soul of man and therefore does not have a soul.

It is also the he reason why "the sea was no longer" in Rev.21:1 or "the night shall be no more" in Rev.22:5. The sea here is the soul and the night is the darkness of oblivion while we are removed from our soul (and still have a soul). So "the night shall be no more" is when we have become an integral part of our soul and after that it can be said that we no longer have a soul and it is when we no longer have a soul that Paradise is regained and we are Freethinkers because of it. Until then we are free to think.

GeoTheo

Christians pray and trust God for things. I don't see how this is compatable with constantly questioning God's existence. Nor is it consistent with agnosticism. However, I have had doubts. I have always felt that doubts are not a bad thing and in my experience they have led to me gaining a better understanding of God and have led to God revealing himself to me in a new way.
I also have an experiential element to my belief and I believe that by preparing my heart in a certian way I actually do experience God's presence in my life. Having experienced that it is hard for me to deny God's existence. I do not believe that this expiriential element is somthing I can use to convince other people of God's existence, but it is very powerful in convincing me.
I have recently changed my position on some of my theological beliefs. I have gone from a belief in Young Earth Creationism to Theistic evolution. I have done this through studying scientific evidence. This has put me into conflict with other members of my church. I do not feel they are even in a position to examine their own views on the issue. So I would say they are being dogmatic. They feel that to even question their position would be wrong. My opinion is that they are showing a lack of faith. It appears they are afraid to actually examine the issue. It is my belief that Christians should not fear self examination, if indeed they actually are seeking the truth.
I also believe in the free exchange of ideas, believing the truth will prevail. I would think that people who believe in censorship or some type of theocratic totalitarianism could not possibly believe they have the truth on their side otherwise they would not need to shut out all oppposing ideas.
Some Christians and atheists have told me that questioning a literal creation account would eventually lead to me rejecting the Bible altogether and adopting atheism eventually.
I have not found this to be the case. It has caused me to question the basic assumtions of Christian fundamentalism. But I find I have become a stronger Christian for it. It has given me some humility in what I believe in that I might be wrong. It has also caused me to be more accepting of other Christians that may believe differently.
It has caused me to want to focus on being more like Christ and not on winning people over to an ideology. Although I still firmly believe that Christ is God's only begotten son who came to provide salvation for mankind, I try to respect people of other faiths and seek to understand where they are coming from.
I do not know if I would call myself a free thinker, but I do not hink I am dogmatic. I also think that belief in God is a choice that one actually has to make. One has to take a step in faith. Therefore I do not think I can force atheists to believe by painting them into a logical corner. Though, I would hope that they too could experience God in their life someday.
In that sense I respect their beliefs.

K

GeoTheo:

You are not a freethinker. You said yourself that one has to take a step of faith. That alone pretty much rules you out of the freethinking category.

Pseudonymph

Marz...You make some good points...and I'll try my best to answer you.


Thank you!


Well...Here's the deal with my "belief"; When I was calling myself an atheist, the only reason wasnt just so I woulnd't feel weak. The other reason was that it felt so nice to be so sure about something for the first time in a long time. I mean, me and the group I hung out with (mostly atheists) were so sure of ourselves... I mean we had it all figured out! (Suffice to say some of this didn't have to do with atheism so much as being a teenager...you know how it is.)

But then I began to question why I lacked a belief. I would find myself wandering off and "talking" to God in my own strange way. Not just in bad times but on many different occasions. Not like "prayer" or worship...just conversation.

Did I "hear" responses? No. Did I feel something different? Yes. Now I realize this is all anectdotal and therefore essentially worhtless to anyone besides myself...but that was me thinking with a clear head and as rational as I could be.

Evidence has been quite an issue with me. All throughout school I have taken classes that challenge my thought process and push my limits. They have taught me to know that I know very little. In my opinion, we are all pretty much in the same boat.

I listened to several biology teachers smugly explain evolution and why it was so great and true and how wrong everyone else was(and I realize that I have just not been very lucky...near all of my science teachers have dogmaticly adhered to evolution, trust me if you had been there even you would agree!) And I was asking myself why it was so hard to believe that God could have worked in evolution...how could that not be his way to create? Obviously the process of evoltion is very complex and intricate...and I think to myself; What a creation! I don't understand why Christians shy away from science as though God would not work through and utilize something he has given us the knowledge to understand.

I see the difference in humans and "lower" animals. ( I say "lower" becuase of course we are animals as well...just a little higher up )
And I think that given just how different we are, there must be a reason for us to have evolved this way. We have true freewill, a concience(SP? ) and a means to judge what society has told us is right and wrong.

I fear that I may be rambling...I hope I'm not...and I also hope this clears a few things up!