Viti

luvluv, did you miss the part about my happy, committed, long (by todays standards) marriage? We have been together since we were 19 and married since we were 21. I am not lacking for an emotional bond. Hubby and I have chosen to experience life and what is has to offer as a team. I did not throw away anything nor have I ever wasted a day of my life.

bonduca

I would be very interested in hearing luvluv's thoughts on that, myself.

luvluv

bonduca, thats an intersting opinion, but that this hormone is secreted during sex in women is actually a fact. I don't have access to the magazine right now but the next time you are in Barnes and Nobles pick up the latest issue of Essence (it's purple with a picture of India Arie on the cover) and read the article about promiscuity. Clinical sex therapists discuss the hormone at some length.

Folks, you can't talk yourself out of your biology or your psychology. I guess its supposed to sound impressive, but to me it sounds pathetic. If I sleep with a woman I'm not that interested in, I couldn't care less if she threw me out. What we just engaged in was more in my interests, biologically and emotionally, than hers. Obviously, it is a tremendous advantage to men if women decieve themselves on this issue, but that doesn't change the fact. Women have moved onto male territory with the sexual revolution, and men have been reaping almost all the benefits and women have been left holding the bill.

(That was actually the thesis of the afforementioned The Great Disruption written by an one of the worlds foremost sociologists and, by the way, he's an agnostic)

You think any man gives a rats behind if a woman he doesn't care about throws them out after they've had sex with you? That woman has probably just given them a less awkward out then the one they may have been working up to. This is not any kind of attack against you, but just the general attitude that women have that they are somehow advantaging themselves by by being promiscuous. I am not questioning whether or not women enjoy sex, I am just making the general statement that it is more beneficial to them on almost every level if it occurs within a committed relationship than on a casual basis. In the long run, the less commitment that is required for sex, the more the man benefits, biologically, emotionally, and tempermentally, because he is more likely to not to want a relationship in the first place. I think we have been lying to ourselves about this long enough.

Gurdur

*sigh*
I guess it's time for me to come out of the closet.
I'm one of the few guys who actually doesn't like porn.
Now before you all write me off as a buzzkill, there are three main reasons why I really don't like it:

1) Owing to a rather interesting adolescence, I've personally known people who were exploited by the lower-grade hard-porn industry - and it (among other things) fucked them up completely and utterly, and finally.
(please see Note 1 at bottom)

2) It also always reminds me of all the pix I had to study of interesting skin and other diseases, and I get nauseous. No, I am not joking.

3) It's buggered, inartistic, cardboard, boring and stereotyped.
I like the occasional erotica, but often I'm content simply to gaze at real people I know personally.

True, but I prefer if my girlfriends simply look happy; true beauty, I think, is when someone radiates contentment.
____________

Note 1:

Interestingly, many female porn actresses make the point that the conventional film industry is far more sexist and abusive than the mainline porn industry (as opposed to the lower-grade, marginal porn industry I spoke of above).

However, speaking against that very valid point is the fact that females are still exposed to the great risk of AIDS from their male counterparts in the industry, owing to different controls on the genders, and that many wouldn't do it anyway except for the money.

luvluv

Michael I reckon you are reffering to Coming of Age in Samoa and while I have been trying to get my hands on a copy for sometime, I have never been able to read it. But as far as I know, that was one study that was done a LONG time ago ( I think it was in the 20's or thereabouts) and I don't think that that one study really forms the basis for how psychologists view sexuality today.

And again, clinical psychologists, many of whom are atheists, support my position. I am not pulling this out of a Sunday school lesson. This is what observation and research bear out. We can leave religion totally out of this.

Shea, I'm glad you are happily married. If you are being faithful to your husband do you consider yourself to be "hiding from life" more so than you were when you were experimenting? Are you happier now that you are having sex within a committed relationship or do you wish you were single again? If you are happier being married, then you can understand why I would prefer to skip the experimentation. I am not saying that promiscuity forever ruins women, but I am saying, with the best science that we have on the issue, that it is more often than not symptomatic of deeper issues. Have you always been happy? And have all your sexual activities been an expression of your contentment? Only you can answer that. But you would probably agree with me that you are happier now.

[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]</p>

Bree

You can gaze at me ANYTIME, Gurdur .

luvluv - I find it intriguing that you believe personal problems and issues manifest themselves in sexual ways. For example, you believe that if a lady wants to sleep with multiple partners, she obviously has emotional problems - not enough family contact as a youngster etc. In other words, it is virtually impossible to believe that someone would want sex for pleasure simply because people don't work that way?

I'm interested in what you think about the homosexual community. I am obviously a lesbian because my father was never home for me and I spent all my time with women. I did not have a strong fatherly role in my life and therefore cannot have a relationship with men, so I prefer screwing girls for comfort .

bonduca

My experience is a fact. That is a magazine article in ESSENCE?

I'm not trying to. You are the one with the pink delusions.

No. And nothing is pathetic here but your need to turn me into June Allyson.

That is why was it so hard to get them to stop calling? Following me? Giving me a major guilt complex?

While I applaud his lack of religious sensibilities, he is still deluded about women.

See above.

I am not "advantaging" myself. I am living my life. "Promiscuous" or not is not a term I apply to myself. Your assessment is not relevant to me.

Astonish me.

At what stage of life? Eventually every healthy human develops a close and caring relationship. But when we are not mature, we are exploring our options in many ways. The important thing is to protect against disease and people who would do us harm. The approval of everyone in the world is not necessary.

Yes, let's cut the crap. I know many men who are good, kind, caring people who need love and companionship. That includes my boyfriend. In fact, if it were not for his many wonderful attributes, I would probably not even be in a relationship, since (contrary to your theories) I am a capricious pain in the ass. Because he (not me) is such a caring, kind, trusting, and trustworthy person, I have had to become a better person myself, to be worthy of him.

I think you can continue to lie to yourself as long as you please, but I will continue to live in reality.

[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]</p>

Viti

luvluv, I thought I made it clear without blurting it out. Most of my "experimentation" has occured during my marriage, with my husband right there with me.

[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: LadyShea ]</p>

bonduca

I really like this.

luvluv

Folks, for the last time, these are not simply my opinions. I think you all should write letters to psychology journals so that your opinions and anectdotal evidence can be compared with clinical research. I am going to keep this board saved for anytime anyone commenting wants to pretend they live their lives on the basis of the results of science, because science simply disagrees with you on this point.

Bree, I don't know anything about you. I am obviously not saying that all sexuality is pathological. But some of it is. And it is so quite often. Anybody saying otherwise is dishonest.

bonduca, I guess I am supposed to be impressed, but I'm not. I've heard all the tough talk before and it's never impressed me very much. If you can turn off the lights and lay awake and still say everything you are saying to me to yourself and know in your heart it's the truth, then more power to you. But most women can't. We all like to pretend we are these invulnerable beings that can just turn their emotions on and off when we get horny, but that is not true. Frankly, I don't belileve a word of anything you've said. I'm not impressed with the fact that men are calling you. If you had sex with them without requiring much of them, of course they want to see you again.

I know men are emotional, and I know women are sexual. But I also know that men are more sexual than women, and women are more emotional than men.

But again, this is not my opinion. This is the opinion of all the research their is on the issue. You folks are killing the messenger.

"Eventually every healthy human develops a close and caring relationship. But when we are not mature, we are exploring our options in many ways."

Humans have only been engaging in the phenomenon of serial monogamy, which you are now describing, for about a hundred years. Almost all cultures at all times in the history of humanity have had constaints on the sexual activity of people. The lifestyle you are attributing to your "humanity" is more attributable to your television set then it is to anything intrinsic to human behavior. Humans have not been doing anything of the kind until the advent of birth control, and even with birth control what we now find is more illegitimacy, STD's, divorce, and fatherlessness than at any time in history. It is demonstrably a bad idea, and about the only good thing we get out of it is 10 minutes of gratification.

[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]</p>