Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MrDarwin · 12-04-2002, 05:04 AM

<a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/12/021204080856.htm" target="_blank">Revolutionary New Theory For Origins Of Life On Earth</a>

Oolon Colluphid · 12-04-2002, 05:18 AM

Thanks Mr D. I heard a bit on it this morning on 'Today' on BBC Radio 4: a brief interview with Russell and the creationists' favourite (along with Hoyle

), Chandra Wickramsinghe.

I lost reception in the car park, so didn't hear it properly, but one thing to note is that this is a new theorythat Russell has been working on for the last fifteen years...

DT

Duvenoy · 12-04-2002, 07:41 AM

Very interesting, Mr. D.

The life surrounding the ocean's thermal vents is like none other known on earth. I have wondered if places such as these could have been the 'Beginning.' I'll be watching this research closely and hope I have enough life of my own left to see it to it's conclusion.

Many thanks!

doov

Tom Sawyer · 12-04-2002, 08:49 AM

That's a really cool theory.

Does anyone know how one would go about testing something like that? Is it even possible or would this have to remain in the "it might have happened this way" column?

MrDarwin · 12-04-2002, 09:28 AM

It seems to me that this theory still faces the same problems as other ideas about the origin of life, and a few additional problems of its own. It still has to explain the origin of self-replicating molecules, with the added burden of explaining how they got into and came together in these crystallized compartments, when we already know that many of the precursors (already fairly large molecules themselves) are soluble in water and can form spontaneously in solution, given the right conditions.

On the other hand, maybe they've come up with a way to evolve life that's possible but didn't occur on this planet, but may have happened on others.

Dr.GH · 12-04-2002, 09:58 AM

Thanks for the link. There have been many preceeding papers that are consistant with Martin and Russell, and I’ll be interested to see their bibliography. Some that come to mind are:

Amend, J. P. , E. L. Shock
1998 “Energetics of Amino Acid Synthesis in Hydrothermal Ecosystems” Volume 281, number 5383, Issue of 11 Sep , pp. 1659-1662.

Blochl, Elisabeth, Martin Keller, Gunter Wachtershauser, Karl Otto Stetter
1992 “Reactions depending on iron sulfide and linking geochemistry with biochemistry” PNAS-USA v.89: 8117-8120

BRANDES, JAY A., NABIL Z. BOCTOR, GEORGE D. CODY, BENJAMIN A. COOPER, ROBERT M. HAZEN & HATTEN S. YODER JR
1998 Abiotic nitrogen reduction on the early Earth Nature 395, 365 - 367

Cody, George D., et al
2000 “Primordial Carbonylated Iron-Sulfur Compounds and the Synthesis of Pyruvate” Science v.289 : 1337-1340

Huber, Claudia, Gunter Wachtershauser
1997 “Activated Acetic Acid by Carbon Fixation on (Fe,Ni)S Under Primordial Conditions” Science v. 276: 245-247

Huber, Claudia, Gunter Wachtershauser
1998 “Peptides by Activation of Amino Acids with CO on (Ni,Fe)S Surfaces: Implications for the Origin of Life” Science v.281: 670-672

Imai, E., Honda, H., Hatori, K., Brack, A. and Matsuno, K.
1999 “Elongation of oligopeptides in a simulated submarine hydrothermal system“ Science 283(5403):831–833.

Parsons, Ian, Martin R. Lee, and Joseph V. Smith 1998 Biochemical Evolution II: Origin of Life in Tubular Microsrtuctures on Weathered Feldspar Surfaces. Proceedings of the National Academy of Science 95 (26): 15173

Shock, Everett L.
1990 “Geochemical Constraints on the Origin of Organic Compounds in Hydrothernal Systems” Origins of Life and Evolution of the Biosphere v.20: 331-367

Von Damm, K. L.
1995 “Controls on the Chemistry and Temporal Variability of Seafloor Hydrothemal Fluids” in Seafloor Hydrodynamical Systems: Physical, Chemical, Biological, and Geological Interactions Geophysical Monograph 91 The American Geophysical Union

Wachtershauser, Gunter
2000 “Perspective” Science v.289 : 1308

These would serve the notion, long advanced, that hydrothermal vents and mineral substrates were the locations of the origin of life. I would say that Woese is probably the current “heavy thinker" for pre-cellular evolution.

Woese, Carl
1998 “The universal ancestor” PNAS Vol. 95, Issue 12, 6854-6859, June 9

Woese, Carl
2002 “On the evolution of Cells” PNAS Vol. 99 13:8742-8747, June 25

Ultimately, the question must fall to the geochemists who might find the particular 'life signiture' in some rock somewhere.

Neruda · 12-04-2002, 10:09 AM

This is very interesting. I've been studying molecular evolution recently, so this is right up my alley. What do you guys think about the Cairns-Smith theory?

Doubting Didymus · 12-04-2002, 01:59 PM

Quote:

What do you guys think about the Cairns-Smith theory?

The crystal replicator? Well, it is ever such a nice theory. I find myself wanting it to be true, which is dangerous. It looks very nice in theory, but I have found that it runs into a bit of a wall when you need it to account for modern biodiversity (that is, the transition from crystals to replicating organic molecules).

I have never been able to get my head around an evolutionary pathway that would connect crystals to RNA, or any simpler replicating molecule, with each step being both small and beneficial/neutral. That rings a bit of a death knell in my mind, but I would certainly be interested in what cairns-smith have to say about this transition themselves.

Quetzal · 12-05-2002, 01:20 AM

All journalists should be drowned at birth. "Revolutionary New Theory" my aunt sally. Russell's been working on this forever. See <a href="http://www.gla.ac.uk/projects/originoflife/" target="_blank">U Glasgow Origin of Life</a> website. Unless he's come up with brand new information to bolster his idea (which didn't really come across in the article), it's just another hypothesis. I personally have always liked the submarine hotsprings idea (Corliss has a similar model), and Russell's model explains some of the things Corliss didn't touch. But to proclaim it "revolutionary" like no one ever thought about it before is plain hype.

Neruda · 12-05-2002, 11:28 AM

There's also the surface metabolism theory of life's origins, put out by Gunter Wachtershauser. Has anyone researched that? He wrote an article about it in the december 1988 issue of Microbiological reviews. I read it, but I can't claim to understand it.

12-04-2002, 05:04 AM	#1
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	New theory on origin of life <a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/12/021204080856.htm" target="_blank">Revolutionary New Theory For Origins Of Life On Earth</a>

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12-04-2002, 05:18 AM	#2
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	Thanks Mr D. I heard a bit on it this morning on 'Today' on BBC Radio 4: a brief interview with Russell and the creationists' favourite (along with Hoyle ), Chandra Wickramsinghe. I lost reception in the car park, so didn't hear it properly, but one thing to note is that this is a new theorythat Russell has been working on for the last fifteen years... DT

12-04-2002, 07:41 AM	#3
Duvenoy Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Just another hick from the sticks. Posts: 1,108	Very interesting, Mr. D. The life surrounding the ocean's thermal vents is like none other known on earth. I have wondered if places such as these could have been the 'Beginning.' I'll be watching this research closely and hope I have enough life of my own left to see it to it's conclusion. Many thanks! doov

12-04-2002, 08:49 AM	#4
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	That's a really cool theory. Does anyone know how one would go about testing something like that? Is it even possible or would this have to remain in the "it might have happened this way" column?

12-04-2002, 09:28 AM	#5
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	It seems to me that this theory still faces the same problems as other ideas about the origin of life, and a few additional problems of its own. It still has to explain the origin of self-replicating molecules, with the added burden of explaining how they got into and came together in these crystallized compartments, when we already know that many of the precursors (already fairly large molecules themselves) are soluble in water and can form spontaneously in solution, given the right conditions. On the other hand, maybe they've come up with a way to evolve life that's possible but didn't occur on this planet, but may have happened on others.

12-04-2002, 09:58 AM	#6
Dr.GH Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Dana Point, Ca, USA Posts: 2,115	Thanks for the link. There have been many preceeding papers that are consistant with Martin and Russell, and I’ll be interested to see their bibliography. Some that come to mind are: Amend, J. P. , E. L. Shock 1998 “Energetics of Amino Acid Synthesis in Hydrothermal Ecosystems” Volume 281, number 5383, Issue of 11 Sep , pp. 1659-1662. Blochl, Elisabeth, Martin Keller, Gunter Wachtershauser, Karl Otto Stetter 1992 “Reactions depending on iron sulfide and linking geochemistry with biochemistry” PNAS-USA v.89: 8117-8120 BRANDES, JAY A., NABIL Z. BOCTOR, GEORGE D. CODY, BENJAMIN A. COOPER, ROBERT M. HAZEN & HATTEN S. YODER JR 1998 Abiotic nitrogen reduction on the early Earth Nature 395, 365 - 367 Cody, George D., et al 2000 “Primordial Carbonylated Iron-Sulfur Compounds and the Synthesis of Pyruvate” Science v.289 : 1337-1340 Huber, Claudia, Gunter Wachtershauser 1997 “Activated Acetic Acid by Carbon Fixation on (Fe,Ni)S Under Primordial Conditions” Science v. 276: 245-247 Huber, Claudia, Gunter Wachtershauser 1998 “Peptides by Activation of Amino Acids with CO on (Ni,Fe)S Surfaces: Implications for the Origin of Life” Science v.281: 670-672 Imai, E., Honda, H., Hatori, K., Brack, A. and Matsuno, K. 1999 “Elongation of oligopeptides in a simulated submarine hydrothermal system“ Science 283(5403):831–833. Parsons, Ian, Martin R. Lee, and Joseph V. Smith 1998 Biochemical Evolution II: Origin of Life in Tubular Microsrtuctures on Weathered Feldspar Surfaces. Proceedings of the National Academy of Science 95 (26): 15173 Shock, Everett L. 1990 “Geochemical Constraints on the Origin of Organic Compounds in Hydrothernal Systems” Origins of Life and Evolution of the Biosphere v.20: 331-367 Von Damm, K. L. 1995 “Controls on the Chemistry and Temporal Variability of Seafloor Hydrothemal Fluids” in Seafloor Hydrodynamical Systems: Physical, Chemical, Biological, and Geological Interactions Geophysical Monograph 91 The American Geophysical Union Wachtershauser, Gunter 2000 “Perspective” Science v.289 : 1308 These would serve the notion, long advanced, that hydrothermal vents and mineral substrates were the locations of the origin of life. I would say that Woese is probably the current “heavy thinker" for pre-cellular evolution. Woese, Carl 1998 “The universal ancestor” PNAS Vol. 95, Issue 12, 6854-6859, June 9 Woese, Carl 2002 “On the evolution of Cells” PNAS Vol. 99 13:8742-8747, June 25 Ultimately, the question must fall to the geochemists who might find the particular 'life signiture' in some rock somewhere.

12-04-2002, 10:09 AM	#7
Neruda Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Portland, OR, USA Posts: 80	This is very interesting. I've been studying molecular evolution recently, so this is right up my alley. What do you guys think about the Cairns-Smith theory?

12-05-2002, 01:20 AM	#9
Quetzal Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Ecuador Posts: 738	All journalists should be drowned at birth. "Revolutionary New Theory" my aunt sally. Russell's been working on this forever. See <a href="http://www.gla.ac.uk/projects/originoflife/" target="_blank">U Glasgow Origin of Life</a> website. Unless he's come up with brand new information to bolster his idea (which didn't really come across in the article), it's just another hypothesis. I personally have always liked the submarine hotsprings idea (Corliss has a similar model), and Russell's model explains some of the things Corliss didn't touch. But to proclaim it "revolutionary" like no one ever thought about it before is plain hype.

12-05-2002, 11:28 AM	#10
Neruda Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Portland, OR, USA Posts: 80	There's also the surface metabolism theory of life's origins, put out by Gunter Wachtershauser. Has anyone researched that? He wrote an article about it in the december 1988 issue of Microbiological reviews. I read it, but I can't claim to understand it.

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