penumbra

Had an interesting discussion the other day. I had taken a trip out of state to visit with the family of one of my relatives who passed away after a prolonged and painful illness. While there, I was introduced to a “shirt-tail” relative that I had never before met, who happens to be a minister at a local church. We were sitting around swapping tales about the deceased when the minister says: “I think we should all bow our heads and thank the Lord for ending her suffering and taking her unto his bosom.”

Now normally, I would’ve just bit my tongue, but since the deceased had been a very skeptical agnostic, I just couldn’t quite let it slide by. The following isn’t exactly verbatim, but very close.

Me: Gee, that’s awfully big of you, since he caused her all that pain to begin with.

Him: God doesn’t cause pain and suffering. Where in the world did you get that idea?

Me: Well, you’re a man of God, let’s look at what the church taught me back when I attended and see where I went wrong. As I recall, among other things, I was taught that God:
1. is eternal, perfect and everlasting,
2. created all the universe, heaven and earth, and everything contained therein,
3. was, is, and always will be all-powerful, and,
4. was, is and always will be all-knowing.
Have I got that much right? Those are some of the basic “truths” that you assert?

Him: Uh, yes, but….

Me: No buts yet. Let me finish my thought, and then you can set me straight. Now if God is the one and only, all-powerful creator of everything, then it stands to reason that he created the causes of human pain and suffering. He made all those things that are bad, evil, sinful, awful, terrible, etc. He has the responsibility, the blame if you will, for all those things existing in the first place. After all, they would not exist had he not created them.

Him: You don’t understand (launches into a lengthy explanation of the classic free-will defense, with a few biblical references thrown in)

Me: There’s a problem with that, though. If you hold to the above four assertions, then at the very moment that the universe was created, everything that has ever happened or will ever happen was already determined and set into place. Remember the all-knowing part? Man may well have the illusion of free will, and think he has a real choice, but it’s only an illusion, because God already caused everything, already knew every outcome. In order for man to have truly free will, God would have to have given up part of the all-knowing characteristic, thereby putting the lie to assertion number 4.

Him: Well, … (launches into a lengthy explanation of God existing outside of man’s concept of time and space, etc)

Me: But where and how God “exists” doesn’t really matter if he has total and complete control over his creation. He has forever pulled the strings and we can only dance to the tune. He is responsible for everything, from the itch on the bottom of my foot, to the holocaust. His actual “location” and/or form doesn’t relieve him from that responsibility.

Him: (launches into another excuse that boils down to: man is incapable of knowing the true nature of God and his plan, quotes a dead xian or two)

Me: But, if God created man in such a way as to be incapable of “completely” understanding His true nature and His grand plan, then it is God that is too blame for that, too. And if you can’t truly understand God, how can you be so sure that those four assertions are anywhere near correct?

But, whether you can or cannot fathom God’s true nature is really beside the point, isn’t it? The bottom line is that not matter how you slice it, dice it, or sugar-coat it; no matter how you try to interpolate it, twist it, or spin it; no matter how many wordy, esoteric, philosophical arguments you come up with; no matter how many dead saints you quote; you cannot absolve God of the ultimate responsibility for all the world’s pain, suffering, agony, evil and sin, unless you are willing to violate or modify one or more of those four assertions that you spout from your pulpit every Sunday. And the millisecond that you modify one of those, the moment that you tack on any kind of qualifiers, then you’ve changed the very basis of you say is your belief. You’ve come up with a cause, a reason, a power or a force, that is external to God and not under his control. You have made him less than the God you claim him to be. But if you steadfastly insist on sticking with and teaching those four assertions, without modification, then it really is all God’s fault, isn’t it?

Him: Well, truthfully, we know that God must have had a purpose for allowing her suffering, something that would lead eventually to a greater good. So, in that sense…..

I just rolled my eyes and changed the subject.

braces_for_impact

Sweet mother's milk! You're one pushy militant atheist aren't you?



That's what is so interesting about the "great debate" if you will.
A priest, rabbi, minister, etc. can go to years a schooling, become trained in apologetics and so on, and along comes an atheist with a little common sense and it doesn't mean squat.

penumbra

Nah, not really.

I normally try hard to avoid that kind of confrontation. Something just got to me this time. Mind you, I didn't raise my voice or rant and rave, the entire conversation was very civil, even low key in terms of sound volume. No raised voices or pointing fingers or outlandish gestures. And the "audience" was all adults, no kids, and no fundies.

Next time I'll try harder to make sure my horns are showing!

NonHomogenized

"conan! What is good in life?"
"to crush your enemies; to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."

Life is good, eh?

Pfeh, that story almost makes me wish I spent time around preachers.

Kruzkal

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

You honour, the defendent is clearly making a guilty plea!

__________________

Nobody's perfect
I am a nobody
Therefore
I am perfect

Biff the unclean

It's funny how all that fathoming just comes and goes. One second the Minister has no fathoming problems ("I think we should all bow our heads and thank the Lord for ending her suffering and taking her unto his bosom.") The "Lord" is just giving dear old Auntie a big hug. The next second nobody knows what the hell is happening. :banghead:

sophie

debatable.


Agreed, the omniGOD created the possibilities of human pain. omniGOD created the possibilities of all those things that are
bad, evil, sinful, awful, terrible, etc. However these are only possibilities of events with these characteristics. The big event which is not itself laden with possibilities is one's own existence. An existence lacks the possibilities because it is real,
but the fulfilling of the existence includes the possibilities.

If you note pain is not found on a tree growing. Disease which exists with human existence can be picked up if one is not careful it seems.

These things do not exist the same way man and woman and child and tree exists, they exist only as possibilities. Yes omniGOD created the possibility of man, woman and child being inflicted with the possibilities.


onmiGOD is all powerful which surely indicates the possibility of asserting any event. omniGOD is all knowing which must indicate the possibility of knowing any event. Minimally all powerful and all knowing indicates the possibilities. Maximally all powerful and all knowing indicates the actuality of all the events.

All knowing does not exclude knowing at a later time and date, All knowing seems to show : can know all ; and does know all ; and has access to all. All powerful can entail selective knowing even while knowing all which is the selection of selective knowing with access to all.




As I showed you, this is not substantially true. The combination of all knowing and all powerful does annul your argument.



It is true that omniGOD cannot be absolved of the ultimate responsibility for creating the possibilities which have led to the all the world’s pain, suffering, agony, evil and sin. omniGOD created the possibilities, humans acted them out.

Yes it is omniGOD's fault, but not substantially in the way in which you have argued. I have managed to water your argument down to possibilities. I have demonstrated how conflicts between all powerful and all knowing can be resolved. Finally without omniGOD's direct guidance humans act out the possibilities and turn them into existential realities.

The humans picked the evils which omniGOD created as possible choices. To argue that omniGOD is evil and wicked because the possibilities exist, is not an argument which can substantially be shown to be a sound case.

<insult deleted - liv>

I will roll my eyes and change the subject, but be careful how you argue your case.

Doctor X

Dressing up a failed concept in a new name does not make it more than a failed concept.

--J.D.

Rational BAC

Take away predestination. Do very many Christians believe in pre-destination?

A strawman.

Take away an omniscient God------at least as far as knowing the future. And the whole previous argument falls down like a house of cards.

And there is the true concept of "free will".

wade-w

Yes, RBac, if you take away omniscience, the argument fails. As far as I can tell, omniscience is a integral part of the "standard" xian god.

And the concept of freewill is inconsistent with an omniscient god.