Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Christoph · 04-08-2002, 12:01 PM

I really must clarify. I'm looking at it from mankinds perspective. I understand that we invent our own micro-purposes that don't amount to anything if there's no singular purpose.

Can you explain any kind of ideology, even the seperation of church and state, without knowing what the real goal is? You may think that Hitler was wrong to kill the Jews, but how can you say that if you don't know the goal of mankind? You certainly can't say that if you don't know the purpose (if there is one).

Christoph · 04-08-2002, 12:05 PM

Another thing. How do we know that we are doing the best we can for our children, for instance. If there's no purpose, there is no best, or even measure of good. There is nothing (which makes one realize what a wonder evolution is).

Mageth · 04-08-2002, 12:08 PM

I don't think there is a "goal" of mankind. Look back, say, 2000, 1000, 500, 100 or even 50 years, and there was no "goal" to reach the precice state of humanity we see today. There are those who perceive or concoct goals for the future, but they are practically unattainable as reality has a way of making us wander from any perceived goal (if we could even agree on one).

Whether Hitler was wrong or not has nothing to do with a "goal" of mankind; rather it's a subjective judgment based on commonly-held humanistic morals.

Eudaimonist · 04-08-2002, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph:
I really must clarify. I'm looking at it from mankinds perspective. I understand that we invent our own micro-purposes that don't amount to anything if there's no singular purpose.

My purpose in life is only "micro" by some alien, external, perhaps collectivistic, perspective. Based on my internal perspective, my happiness is a great purpose -- not "micro" at all.

Quote:

Can you explain any kind of ideology, even the seperation of church and state, without knowing what the real goal is? You may think that Hitler was wrong to kill the Jews, but how can you say that if you don't know the goal of mankind? You certainly can't say that if you don't know the purpose (if there is one).

There is no singular purpose of "mankind". There is only the purpose of happiness (i.e. "life", "flourishing", "prosperity") that each individual has as an individual. Socially and politically, I'd say that the purpose we ought to give to government is to enforce individual rights so that we all, as individuals, have enough freedom to flourish in as individuals.

I'll recommend the following books:

Liberty and Nature by Rasmussen and Den Uyl
Viable Values by Tara Smith

[ April 08, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonist ]

Mageth · 04-08-2002, 12:11 PM

All this makes me realize how sad and depressing a theistic world view really can be.

Christoph · 04-08-2002, 12:16 PM

I'm just waiting for an answer. Of course, I know there isn't one without God. Please do better than that.

By the way, I agree that we give the government a purpose. I'm not debating that.

I really need to know if there is a reasonable response to this question besides that an inteligence put the purpose there.

Mageth · 04-08-2002, 12:21 PM

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There is no "Purpose," with a capital P. You have not established that there is, that there should be, or that there is an intelligence which gives/gave us one, and I don't think you can. There are only "purposes" with a lower case p which each of us must determine for ourselves.

That has been, is, and will be, my answer, at least, to your "question."

MortalWombat · 04-08-2002, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph:

I really can't understand why an atheist can say life has purpose. Please clarify that for me.

I guess that's really not our problem, it's yours, isn't it? You don't seem to take people at their word that they can have meaning in their lives without a belief in any gods, but I don't have to explain why to you any more than I have to explain why I find rainbows beautiful even though I don't believe in leprechauns with pots o' gold at the end of them.

[ April 08, 2002: Message edited by: MortalWombat ]

MadMordigan · 04-08-2002, 12:24 PM

Its really quite simple. We make it up.

Some people don't invent their own purpose and off themselves.

Some people do make it up and fail at their purpose. They are unhappy.

Some people do make it up and succeed at their purpose. They are happy.

The fact that our individual purposes exist purely as constructs in our own minds doesn't make happiness any less enjoyable.

Christoph · 04-08-2002, 12:24 PM

I haven't established that there is a Purpose. I wouldn't be presumptuous enough to think that I could do something like that when nature screams at the top of her lungs and has been for years.

I will never prove anything to you until you stop saying, "There is no God, therefore..." You must admit the possibility of the supernatural or you will continue to bang your head against a wall.

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04-08-2002, 12:01 PM	#11
Christoph Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland Posts: 22	I really must clarify. I'm looking at it from mankinds perspective. I understand that we invent our own micro-purposes that don't amount to anything if there's no singular purpose. Can you explain any kind of ideology, even the seperation of church and state, without knowing what the real goal is? You may think that Hitler was wrong to kill the Jews, but how can you say that if you don't know the goal of mankind? You certainly can't say that if you don't know the purpose (if there is one).

04-08-2002, 12:05 PM	#12
Christoph Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland Posts: 22	Another thing. How do we know that we are doing the best we can for our children, for instance. If there's no purpose, there is no best, or even measure of good. There is nothing (which makes one realize what a wonder evolution is).

04-08-2002, 12:08 PM	#13
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I don't think there is a "goal" of mankind. Look back, say, 2000, 1000, 500, 100 or even 50 years, and there was no "goal" to reach the precice state of humanity we see today. There are those who perceive or concoct goals for the future, but they are practically unattainable as reality has a way of making us wander from any perceived goal (if we could even agree on one). Whether Hitler was wrong or not has nothing to do with a "goal" of mankind; rather it's a subjective judgment based on commonly-held humanistic morals.

04-08-2002, 12:11 PM	#15
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	All this makes me realize how sad and depressing a theistic world view really can be.

04-08-2002, 12:16 PM	#16
Christoph Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland Posts: 22	I'm just waiting for an answer. Of course, I know there isn't one without God. Please do better than that. By the way, I agree that we give the government a purpose. I'm not debating that. I really need to know if there is a reasonable response to this question besides that an inteligence put the purpose there.

04-08-2002, 12:21 PM	#17
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> There is no "Purpose," with a capital P. You have not established that there is, that there should be, or that there is an intelligence which gives/gave us one, and I don't think you can. There are only "purposes" with a lower case p which each of us must determine for ourselves. That has been, is, and will be, my answer, at least, to your "question."

04-08-2002, 12:24 PM	#19
MadMordigan Beloved Deceased Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 2,704	Its really quite simple. We make it up. Some people don't invent their own purpose and off themselves. Some people do make it up and fail at their purpose. They are unhappy. Some people do make it up and succeed at their purpose. They are happy. The fact that our individual purposes exist purely as constructs in our own minds doesn't make happiness any less enjoyable.

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