Jobar

That was the title given to the only response to the letter I sent to a local newspaper (<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000442" target="_blank">Red letters!</a>).

"Dear editor- Lifeshort [yes, that's how it's printed] Meriwether Co. resident John Barnes, Jr. owns an infinite number of rights. [News to me!] His right to promote a total lack of religious conviction is 'sacred' in America. His right to quote our much neglected Constitution is not to be questioned. All honorable Americans would fight to the death to defend Mr. Barnes' rights.

However there is one problem that Mr. Barnes encounters when quoting the 'very first sentence' of the Bill of Rights. Our Founding Fathers first wrote a document which underlies the Constitution. This document is the Declaration of Independence. No court and no atheist will ever attempt to change or delete- "We hold these truths to be self evident; that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Our Founding Fathers (Mr. Barnes' Founding Fathers), the same founding fathers that an atheist quotes to shore up his letter, held that our rights (Mr. Barnes' rights) come from God, and the powers of the government come from the people.

I, too, am offended. I am offended that 'one of us' does not know, as our founding fathers knew, that our rights come from God. -Frank Keller"

Although this is not near as bad as what I was expecting to see- I really thought hellfire and damnation would be prominently mentioned- still it has me pretty steamed.

Should I write a reply, or would attempting to educate Mr. Keller (who is unknown to me) be a case of trying to stop a forest fire by pissing on it? If so, what points should I hammer on?

ohwilleke

Letters to the editor are not dialogs. No need to reply.

Krieger

The fundies don't get it. Notice that it says "their Creator" not "our Creator". If the founding fathers would have written "our Creator" then they would have been talking about Christian gawd, but they said "their Creator", which can be whatever you want it to be - for example, my "Creator" is natural selection.

Grumpy

More to the point, just because it's in the Declaration of Independence doesn't make it an uassailable fact. The divine ordinance of rights was the opinion of the Founders, it's the opinion of many people today. But it is an opinion, and it is an opinion I do not share.

Shadowy Man

Who cares what the DoI says? They could have claimed independence in the name of Jesus Christ! When it came time to write up the Constitution, they still managed to create a secular government.

oriecat

Why does "their Creator" have to equal "God" and especially the Christian dude? I always think of MY creator as my parents. They're the ones who created me!

d'naturalist

Points in response to the response to your letter.

1. Article VI of the US Constitution states that the Constitution is the "supreme law of the land". The Declaration of Independence, while being a beautiful historic document, is not a legal document.

2. The Preamble to the Constituion clearly states that "We, the People of the United States" grant "to ourselves and our posterity" the rights & responsibilities ennumerated in the Consitution and Bill of Rights. No other authority is invoked as the source of those rights.

3. As others have noted, the Declaration uses the language "their Creator", not "the creator" or "our creator". Combined with the invoking of "the Laws of Nature" in the first paragraph, this clearly establishes a precedent for claiming Nature as one's creator and Natural Law as the source of one's rights.

4. The fact that the Founders used terms like "Nature's God", "Supreme Judge of the World", and "Divine Providence", cannot be used as "proof" of a Christian intent. The terms are too vague (and that was done intentionally to prevent any one group from claiming superiority over others). They could just as easily be a reference to a Pagan god or a Deist god.

5. The fact that the majority of the Founding Fathers and even the majority of the American populace is Christian, does in no way grant that segment of the population special rights or status. The 14th Amendment clearly states that "all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the juridiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and the state in which they reside." Now, I don't have the entire Constitution memorized (yet!), but I don't recall any article or amendment granting special rights or status to any particular group. In fact, we have a history of abolishing such discrepancies (e.g. ending slavery and limits on women's rights).

I'm not sure if this is my 2-cents on the subject or if it's gonna cost me 8-cents (2 per point). Oh well, it's always fun to get rid of those copper coins.

Good luck.

oriecat

You had 5 points, so it'll cost ya a dime. Sorry, we don't want copper, those things are almost useless.

Buffman

d'naturalist

Clear! Concise! Meaningful! SUPERB!

Daydreamer

The Declaration of Independence was a letter written to King George III telling him what a piss-poor monarch he was, and an explaination of what was wrong with the colonialization of America. As such, the authors used every dirty trick in the book, including the 'all men are created equal' bits etc. to stress the gap between the religious freedom of America and the state run church of England.