AspenMama

Tom Sawyer-- I think it is very difficult at times to accept the world for what it most likely is--- I think it also shows intellectual fortitude to continually question the world and search for knowledge to back up scientific theories or debunk mythological stories. You are not a bad atheist for wanting atheism to be wrong--- but as second choice, why choose xianity to be right above any other of the thousands of available mythologies?

How we handle death has always been difficult for not only atheists but society in general. There is no ritual for us and no set grieving period. We are expected to return to work after 6 weeks and get over it. Most of your friends and family cannot think of appropriate words for this kind of suffering. I think it is especially important to have a ritual that involves the community and a celebration of life. And for pets, I think there should be some sort of ritual as well. I'm sorry for the rough time you are going through.

captainpabst

Tom Sawyer - I empathize with your pain.

I am a staunch atheist. However, I have hope - hope that there is something more than this, however pointless that may be. I become very sad when I consider the reality that I will eventually be no more - that everyone I know and love, pets included, will eventually cease to exist. The fact that I am alive and cognizant is so bewildering and incredible to me, that the end of such an incredible thing is crushing. I value every moment I am concious and I am frightened and saddened by the idea that it will someday end. My default emotional state is melancholy. Living on in memories is no consolation, and in fact almost non-comforting.

Despite it all, I go on as I must, seeking out friendship and wonders of life, attempting to experience that which is worthwhile. People are worthwhile. Animals are worthwhile. Relationships are worthwhile. Beauty is all around. Someday I will no longer be concious of it. Indeed, I will be nothing. But it is breathtaking in the meantime.

There are no ultimate answers; there is no ultimate comfort. Carpe Diem. Goodwill towards all.

PS - Stephen T-B, I love you.

villainess

Tom - I'm very sorry for your loss.

I've always thought that if there were an afterlife similar to what the more sentimental class of Christians describe, my cats would probably enjoy it more than I would. After all, humans would get bored, but cats seem to get a lot out of life when they take the same naps, eat the same kibble, play the same games day after day. For them, sleeping in the sun and chasing little catnip mice with wings forever would probably be about as good as it gets.

I doubt there are very many atheists in the world who haven't at one point or another wrestled with the feelings you describe. In a way, it's an ultimate irony that only death can fuel natural selection, which is the only way we know of to create a mind sentient enough to recognize and fear the inevitable death of loved ones.

the_villainess

Opera Nut

I've had dogs die that I dearly loved. I coped with it by having a funeral and reading appropriate material such as Thanatopsis by William Cullen Bryant and Epitaph for a dog by Lord Byron.

I have pictures of the people who have influenced my life and have passed on, displayed in my house. I walk by them, look at them, think about the good memories and what they taught me. They live on in my memory. This includes my mom, my dad, my sister, my "little brother" who lived down the street from me, a friend who was like a grandmother.

The Bridge of San Luis Rey is a short novel by Thornton Wilder. He received the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction in1928 for it.
It is about a bridge over a mountain gorge in Peru, and the bridge breaks and five people fall to their deaths.

Brother Juniper, a monk, witnesses the tragedy and studies the lives of the five people and how they interacted to determine if there was a reason for their deaths, because of their conduct, possibly. His book was judged heretical and it was burned in the public square along with him.

The final conclusion:

" 'Even now', she thought, 'almost no one remembers Esteban and Pepita, but myself. Camila alone remembers her Uncle Pio and her son; this woman, her mother. But soon we shall die and all memory of those five will have left the earth, and we ourselves will be loved for a while and forgotten. But the love will have been enough; all those impulses of love return to the love that made them. Even memory is not necessary for love. There is a land of the living and a land of the dead and the bridge is love, the only survival, the only meaning.' "

Tom Sawyer, I hope this comforts you somehow.

Tom Sawyer

Hey everyone, thanks a lot for your thoughts and comments, they mean a lot to me.

Don't beat up on Magnus55 on my account. His religion is a comfort to him and in a time of grief he was trying to give that same comfort to me. On the one hand, I can see where the anger comes from in his trying to convert someone when they're emotionally vulnerable, but he really was just trying to help in what he sees as the best way possible. So Magnus55, thank you for your thoughts. I appreciate them, but I don't think I'll be converting any time soon.

Also, it's not just the xian view of an afterlife that I kind of hope is real when faced with the deaths of those whom I care about. The idea that part of them would continue on, in any way, shape or form whatsoever, is as much of an emotional pull as the idea that they are in some eternal paradise waiting for me to rejoin them. I do think that Christianity has the best post-life sales pitch, though. In my dogs case, however, an Indian friend of mine opined that perhaps Hime had been such a great dog that she got to move up to the next stage of life so quickly and is now an eagle or someone's little baby somewhere. I like that one.

Questions of life and death are hard. I'm just glad that I was able to hold to what I believe in (or don't believe in, however you want to phrase it) when the chips were down.

Again, I appreciate that everyone here cares about my grief.

PS - Rushianbeing, I'm more of a Rush fan than a Twain fan. Tom Sawyer is my favourite song of all time. However, the fact that it's the title of a novel by a famous atheist is why I chose it for this board.

seebs

I think it's perfectly reasonable to believe something, but hope you're wrong. Just *admitting* that you could be wrong is pretty cool, IMHO.

In the end, I don't see much difference between tawdry atheist answers ("he still lives in your heart") and tawdry Christian answers ("he's in heaven now"). It's all stuff to try to ease the pain, and none of it is ever enough, because really, anywhere but RIGHT HERE is not a good enough place for our loved ones, sometimes.

Anyway, I think you're allowed. After all, who's gonna say you're not allowed to hope you're wrong? God?

Never

I don't believe you have to think of yourself as a "good" or "bad" atheist. You are a human who is an a-theist and has to deal with the loss (and thought of future loss) of loved ones.
I like to think that there is the very small possibility that there is some spiritual consciousness after death, but my logical side says no. (I also think that *if* there were a heaven, cats should definitely be there).
A practical way for you and your loved ones' memories to live forever might be to create a memory book or something similar of quality material that could be passed down to future generations so they could get to know you and yours through writing and pictures. I speak as one who has my grandmothers books she wrote, paintings, quilts, pictures, scrapbooks, etc. plus great-great grandparents photos and scrapbooks.
(Yeah, I got lots of junk, but it's good junk.)

Felstorm

I laughed when I read this.

Magus lurks like a vulture to swoop down and deliver a sales pitch for his particular flavor of imaginary friend. Using Pascals Wager no less! You see if you got it all wrong and our good friend magus here is worshipping the wrong Cthulhu, well he's up shit creek without a paddle.

Sing with me now!

"Row, row, row, your boat, across the River Styx!"

Best bet is not to believe in anything, and if there is an afterlife one can claim innocence because the whole deal is rather confusing. Frankly what is there to be scared of? Nothing? Oblivion? Absense of anything? Your dead what do you care? Religion is a pacifier for fear of the unknown. The more scared you are the more you suck on that bland rubber nipple and convince yourself that it tastes good.

Magus is most definately christian. It's called evangelism. They cannot help themselves. It's like a reflexive regurgitative action. You can't blame a robot for doing what it has been programmed to do.

Atheism tends to be part of a belief system and not a complete one in and of itself. That is why there are the Humanist, Materialist, naturalist, freethinker and many other labels that describe more accurately people who hold atheist beliefs. "Atheist" is such a loaded word that people recoil when you say it, even if they are not particularly religous and may have doubts of their own. But again fear comes into play, that dreaded 'atheist" label keeps alot of people coming to terms with that doubt because of the negative stigma attached to atheism by manipulative theists over the years.

So when atheists display that sterotypical indignation and arrogance towards theists and their monotonous message, its millenia of repression and bilous ire coming out. We realise how shitty theists treat each other and how shitty they have treated atheist and others that don't share their personal brand of theology. Religion is a symptom of a malignant weakness. Fear of the unknown. Fear of that which is not understood. Like a child that needs it parents, it does not want to grow up and needs a daddy to run to when that cold unwelcoming bosom of reality mother nature offers to people at some time or another.

I have no fear of death because I see nothing to fear.

Rushianbeing

Thanks for checking back in, Tom Sawyer, and yeah, maybe we were a little harsh on Magus55! It actually sort of bugged me all weekend-if he genuinely meant to give you comfort, then obviously he meant well. Just didn't want this thread to turn into an argument with a xian instead of what it was intended to be-some support for you!

And yep, T.S. is an awesome song.

fried beef sandwich

Hm, didn't see an option that clicked with my situation.

Over the past few years, I've focused my personal and family life almost exclusively on having normal, well-functioning, loving relationships with the rest of my family.

A large part of that has been for me toning down my logical explanations, avoiding conflicts, etc. As a result, I've largely forgotten the reasons why I left the faith. I used to be as sharp as a tack with the philosophy, biblical criticism, etc. But since, in my borderline fundy family, such discussions regularly led to huge arguments and conflicts, I now avoid them.

If anyone asks me these days why I left the faith, then I tell them "I did a lot of research years ago, and I concluded that I couldn't agree with the major claims and tenets of the xtian faith. But, it turned out to be a good thing b/c I really grew as a result of it and things are great now."

I'm sort of afraid that, years from now, I'll go back b/c of some emotional neediness, or what not.

Basically, I'm in a good position now w/ my family, but my reason has become faith.

[edit: added semi-witty last sentence]