Tom Sawyer

I'm generally quite happy being an atheist and my spiritual beliefs, or lack thereof, really don't affect my life in any way most of the time.

However, over the past month I have lost two pets. The first was my cat Misty. We got her when I was fifteen (I'm thirty now) and she died a few weeks ago. Then my puppy Hime, who was only five months old, died this morning. Fortunately, none of the people whom I know have died recently, but I'm sure if some had (and when they inevitably will) I'll feel the same way that I'm feeling now about the pets.

That feeling is that I really, really, really wish that I was wrong. I loved my pets so much and I'm hit with the fact that not only will I never see them again or be able to play with them and hold them again, but that they are actually GONE. They simply don't exist anymore except in memories. Eventually, those memories will fade and everyone who remembers them will die and there will be no trace left that they actually ever were.

It's a rough thing to consider. I can accept the fact that that's what's going to happen to me and work on liveing as meaningful and enjoyable a life as I can while I'm here, but I can't find myself accepting that for those whom I love. I truly want there to be a part of them that continues forever. My dog was the cutest thing ever and it would be amazing if she were running around with a pack of friendly dogs in heaven. My wife is the best person I've ever met and I think the universe will be a much darker place when she eventually leaves it and I don't want that to happen.

Basically, at times like this I really wish that the theists were right and there is something more and we continue forever. It really is such a good story with such emotional power. When faced with mortality, I can see why religion has such a hold on society - the magic anti-death pill, not just for us but for those we love is something that has a lot of power over the psyche.

I'm split on this feeling. On the one hand I feel like I'm being a bad atheist. Of course, I'm also one of the people who thinks that atheists are defined only by a lack of what we believe, rather than what we do believe, so it's hard to be "bad" at something that has no definition in and of itself. It's a logical conundrum.

On the other hand, I wonder if I'm actually showing intellectual fortitude. I really want to believe that the Christians are right and I'll see all the people and animals that I love again, but I know that it's not real and I'm sticking to what I believe is true (or not believing what I know isn't true, if you prefer) despite how much I emotionally want to believe in an eternal hereafter where I'll be reunited with all my family, friends and pets and everything will just be super forever and ever. I can easily understand why people would take the second option and I feel kind of proud of myself that I didn't choose that option. Then I feel a bit silly for being proud of that.

So, that's the question in the poll: am I a bad atheist for wanting atheism to be wrong, a good atheist for holding to what I know is right no matter how much I want it to be wrong, or am I neither and missing the point entirely?

Seraphim

Basically, at times like this I really wish that the theists were right and there is something more and we continue forever. It really is such a good story with such emotional power. When faced with mortality, I can see why religion has such a hold on society - the magic anti-death pill, not just for us but for those we love is something that has a lot of power over the psyche.

Theists not always right all the time ... their belief is based on what they believe ... that's all.

And Religion is not about curing the fear of death either ... even Theists fear of death ... sometimes more than Atheist for what MAY await for them on the other side.

As for your question ... whether you being good or bad atheist.
I don't see why that should matter. You are just being Human ... is that such a bad thing to be?

The Other Michael

Don't forget that there is a lot of variance in what the theists believe.

You, your wife and pets might keep being reincarnated until you are perfected, your wife might be blissfully in heaven whilst you burn eternally, and the potential destination, if any, of the pets, probably is completely across the board.

Or any, all or none of you might get oblivion/rapturous joy/eternal torment on a random or malicious basis.

It sounds like that line from "Dirty Harry" : "Do you feel lucky? Well, do you, punk?"

Enjoy life while you can.

cheers,
Michael

Stephen T-B

When I was writing a book on a rather primitive PC, I’d sometime finish writing in the early hours, and in a state of mental exhaustion switch the damn thing off without saving my text.
Next day I COULD NOT believe that the stuff I’d written and which I’d seen on the monitor and read and re-read simply no longer existed.
I sometimes spent half an hour searching through everything on the computer, convinced that my brilliant prose was lying somewhere for me to find.
When I eventually came to accept the fact that it had disappeared into the ether, I realised how much harder it must be to acknowledge that a living human being whom you’ve known and loved for years and years has died and exists no more, anywhere.
“But we were only speaking yesterday...”
“But we had a meal together only last week...”
“But we’d agreed to see Matrix Reloaded together...”
“But I’ve got this CD for him...”
“But we were married for 35 years...”
We aren’t psychologically geared to deal with important parts of our lives disappearing completely and forever, and a pet can be as much a part of our life as a member of the family. Recognising this fact is why some pastors, confronted by a broken-hearted member of his/her congregation, will be induced to equivocate about humans being the only creatures with souls, and allow that Benjy or Tabby or Sammie has a continuing existence and that a re-union awaits.
I would say anyone is entitled to believe it; anyone is entitled to believe in an after-life for him/herself. Anyone is entitled to believe anything which makes life more endurable.
The difficulty arises when our intellect, having examined the available evidence, rejects notions of the soul, of an after-life, gods and angels etc etc as being impossible but our emotions insist that they are.
In the end, I think it comes down to one’s instincts, either to stick to harsh realities or to bury them out of sight beneath comfy delusions. Or perhaps come to some sort of compromise.
Doing one or the other is neither better nor worse; we do what we are compelled to.

There is, of course, no denying that our companions do llive on; they live on in our minds, and disconcerttingly, our memories constantly conjure them back to life .

fishbulb

You can't be a "bad atheist;" there are no rules of conduct. "Atheist" simply describes what you believe or, rather, what you don't believe.

Wanting to believe doesn't even make you a "bad skeptic," as long as you don't allow what you would like to be true to colour your observations.

Not wanting to accept that someone you care about is gone and won't be coming back is natural, but I suspect that the best cure for it is not to wallow in self-deception about how you will be reunited with the souls of the departed at some future time, but to consider your life as a whole, and to realize that, even with the loss of an important person or pet, there is still considerable value to be extracted from the rest of your life.

Rushianbeing

Tom Sawyer,
First of all, I am truly, deeply sorry for your loss. I mean that. I have four cats, ranging in age from 6 weeks to 11 years, and I will be devastated when I lose any of them.
Second...I understand where you're coming from re. the "am I being a bad atheist" question. I lost my sister in law, who also happened to be one of my best friends, less than two years ago. She was 31 years old, had just given birth to my beautiful niece 11 weeks earlier (her one and only child), and she simply dropped dead, with no explanation (we still don't know why and we never will). I was and continue to be devastated by her loss. I think back on my wedding last year, and it jolts me to realize that she wasn't there. I hear her voice in my head, and her picture is staring back at me, smilingly, from its place on the side of my computer monitor right now. It absolutely crushes me to think that I will never see or hear her again, and I feel her presence around me all the time. I know this is because I want so badly to believe that she is out there somewhere, happy. But then again...do I really want her "out there" floating in the ether forever? Unable to touch her loved ones, but able to see them?
Sigh...I guess I'm a bad atheist too, because I tend to lean more toward agnosticism. I don't know what happens when we die, humans or animals. I suppose I'll find out when it happens. While I could never in a million years bring myself to believe in a heaven or hell or anything like that, a specific place where we go when we die, I think it's natural to hope that something continues, in some pleasant form.
I don't think you're being a bad atheist. I think you're being a good human.

Peace to you.




p.s. this is completely and perhaps rudely irrelevant, but I have to ask, are you a Twain fan or a Rush fan (or both)?

pariah

its not like being christian would help...cats dont have souls. they cant go to heaven.

KitKit

i wish there was a god & a heaven where i could see all the people and animals i loved who have died. i don't mind saying it. i wish there was a santa claus too. and wouldn't it be really cool if there were fairies? OH and i LOVE to watch dragon tales on PBS with my kids! that would be super cool too...to be able to magically go to dragon land whenever you wanted to & play with all the mythical creatures. heh heh, i've always had an active imagination & can easily ecape into a dream world. sorry.

but alas, i know they are all fairie tales. i am grounded. i know what's real & what isn't. but that doesn't keep me from wishing they were real.

there's nothing wrong with feeling that way. it's completely human & totally normal.

hang in there!

Magus55

Are you positive we are wrong? ( You can't logically say yes to that without knowing everything there is to know). What would it hurt you to accept that we very well could be right? Have you really searched for the truth with an open mind, or are you like most atheists who just say its all wrong and don't give a crap about the possibility of an afterlife? With an open heart, pick up a Bible and sincerely ask God to show you the truth, and cast away your doubts. Whats it gonna hurt? If you end up believing in God, and it turns out he doesn't exist - what have you lost? It can give you a greater peace of mind at the least (at the very least, because God can offer SOOO much more), but if we are right - you can live life in God's love, and spend eternity with Him and your love ones - never to be separated again.

Magus55

Just because animals don't have souls doesn't mean they aren't in Heaven. Many humans love animals, so why wouldn't God provide them to play with in Heaven? He gave Adam and Eve animals in the Garden of Eden.