orpheus last chant

here are some highlights from a site that promotes christian logic...

enjoy...

and here's the link: http://www.christianlogic.com/articl...al_defence.htm

quote:
overwhelm and subdue the rebel city of man’s culture, taking intellectual prisoners to be slaves — willing or unwilling slaves — for Christ.


ummm, what does unwilling slaves for christ mean? that kind of tone disturbs me a lot.

quote:
the fact remains that American Culture is in decline precisely because American Christians have been in retreat. We need to return to the battle and to engage the enemy on all fronts, and we need to raise up a generation of Christians who are prepared to storm the walls of darkness with the weapons of Christian warfare, and we need to take prisoners.

prisoners? even scarier...

Quote:
A faith which is not built upon solid ground cannot be solidly defended.

ok

Quote:
To be properly prepared to defend the faith is really to be properly prepared to believe the faith.

so believing something justifies it....not

Quote:
Some persons are rather naive and gullible. They tend to accept most of what they hear. Some persons are skeptical. They distrust most of everything they hear. But everybody believes something

yes...another very ambiguos use of the word believe...if not here see below

Quote:
Some beliefs are of little importance, and for us to change our belief would have little consequence for us. I believe the sun is 93 million miles from the earth.

importance set by who...importance is given by circumstances at most...

Quote:
Still other beliefs are axiomatic, and to change them would mean a complete change in our life. I believe I am alive. If I found out that I was dead, then my whole behavior would change. [I would eat less, and rest more.]

yeah and spook the hell outta people

Quote
The words "pro-choice," "alternative life-style," and "feminism" are oxymorons which have been insinuated into our culture in order to disintegrate our belief system, and they have been very effective.

oxymorons....really? and i thought christian logic was one...

Quote
Though many of us are less than self-conscious about what we believe, others of us are very aware of what they believe, and deliberately try to live out what they believe in a consistent way. If we are self-consciously Christians, then we try to live in a very Christian way, and we try to speak in a very Christian way. If we are self-consciously Buddhists, then they try to live in a very Buddhist way. If we are self-consciously atheists, then we try to live according to the religion of atheism.

yep... we've heard that before....

Quote:
If I believe whatever the socialist-state legislates is good, whatever the socialist-state teaches is true, and whatever the socialist-state creates is real, then I have adopted the philosophy that man is the measure of all things [humanism], and my perspective is man-centered, and I worship the incarnation of man in the state, and to criticize the head of state is, in my belief system, to blaspheme the godhead. Whatever is our ultimate reference point is ultimately our god — the one to whom we bow down and worship, that one to whom we turn in our time of need.

why do most people confuse the term authority with some despotic idol... hey, my teacher of piano is my authority on music and i don't worship his incarnation (whatever that means) and he does not mind if i suggest things....actually he incourages thinking for yourself...

Quote:
For example, let us suppose that I believe that matter is all there is to reality, that truth is determined by observation of the senses, and that good is whatever I happen to like at any given moment. Now you challenge me. You ask me what is real. I tell you matter is all of reality. (That is my view of reality.) So you ask me to prove that matter is all which is real.

you got it....shifting the burden of proof...let's continue

Quote:
I will argue that reality is all which I observe with my senses. (That is my view of truth.) So you ask me to prove that I can only know truth through my senses. I will argue that truth is whatever I happen to like at the moment. (That is my view of good.) You ask me to prove that what I like is good. I will argue that good is the balance of the chemical material in my brain at any moment. (That is my view of reality.)

I have argued in a full circle — from matter, to senses, to likes, then back to matter again. It is all circular reasoning. As long as I stay within the circle of my god, I will see everything from my perspective. My god determines my worldview. My worldview reflects my god. This kind of arguing will never get anyone to break out of his own circle of faith and to enter the circle of Biblical truth, Biblical reality, and Biblical good.

Only one system of belief, or worldview, can be consistent with reality. Multiple truth values for multiple cultures — they call this multi-culturalism — is a contradiction in terms. It is nonsense.

We can buy a light bulb which shines and removes the darkness, but we cannot buy a darkness bulb which removes the light.
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actually if i could buy my own little black hole it would remove light...

Quote:
A relativist is one who believes there are no absolutes. The relativist reasons this way:

Absolutes and Universal laws do not exist.

Laws of Logic are absolutes and universal laws.

Therefore, Laws of Logic do not exist.
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what a straw man...

Quote:
Logic, particularly the Law of Contradiction, is an inescapable concept. Every falsehood is built on a contradiction. Logic is the means to drive men from their refuge of contradictions into the open light of the truth. If men still prefer darkness in their world of contradiction, then we can do nothing for them.

A Christian should play the role of the skeptic toward all other worldviews.
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but not to his own, right?.... that's a sin....

Quote:
God is true. God perfectly and completely knows Himself personally. God perfectly and completely knows everything within His creation. He does not sit outside and observe it. He created its every part, and He governs its every part, and thereby He knows its every part. Nothing surprises God.

yep....if i eat cherries now...it's god who made me do that....gues i don't have to
worry about giult and stuff because there's a god in charge...he's fault...not mine

Quote:
Just walking down the street — if it is done without reference to God — is a hell-damning sin, worthy of eternal punishment. To teach for hours a day in a classroom school without any mention or reference to God is an aggravating sin which stinks in the nostrils of God. To argue that there is inherent good in nature apart from God is to surrender the argument that God alone is the only source and ultimate reference point for all good.

yep...and when you're sitting on the toilet...without thinking about god...you are commiting SIN
and i can almost see god sniffing at my school, in my biology classes...

Quote:
How about this question, "Is there a God?" Is this the most fundamental question? I do not think so. First of all, everybody knows there is a god — especially the atheists.

I do not spend my time proving there is no tooth fairy. I am not worried about it. It is outside of my belief system. So why do atheists try to prove there is no God? Because the question of God’s existence is fundamental to the belief system which they are building. [Actually, I think it is because they are worried that He’s listening, so they want to develop a logical excuse for ignoring Him.]

Converted atheists admit that they always knew there was a God,
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hmmm if i use this line of reasoning i'll say...why do all theist keep apologetting their beliefs, adn wittnessing to other people... because the question of god's existance is fundamental tot their belief sistem ... so they want to develop a logical excuse for proving him...

Quote:
Men simply become fools trying to deny their Creator. Consider the Big Bang theory for a moment. There is no Creator, so the universe created itself.
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you know...all theists i've met use the word create when refering to big bang....

Quot):
How do we know what we believe? By what standard do we measure our belief system, which consists of: 1) our ultimate perspective — our worldview, and 2) our ultimate reference point — our god? This question challenges whatever authorities a person uses. Rightly understood, every worldview falls before this question — every worldview, except one.
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Some people rely on natural sensory experiences
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some??!?

Quote:
. Modern Science. But surely we can trust science as absolute, final, and conclusive proof for our belief system. The scientific method is the way to find all truth, right? Well, the first question is, which scientific truth should we believe? Last millennium’s? Last century’s? Last decade’s? Last year’s? Last month’s? Last week’s? Yesterday’s? Today’s? Tomorrow’s? If there is one thing which never changes about scientific truth, it is that scientific "truth" always changes.

. How about dreams, visions, and unusual experiences — can we trust them? Again, they often conflict with one another, so how do we determine which ones we can trust?
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exactly can we trust supposed methaphysical revelations?...

Quote:
9. Chemical balances in the brain. The mind is nothing more than the brain — a complex chemical machine. "The brain secretes thoughts as the liver secretes bile." Whatever I happen to think at any moment is all the truth I can ever know. Biochemical stimuli determines all truth. But, then again, how can we ever know if what we believe is true to reality, or if it is merely a biochemical anomaly.

But the materialist deduces:

We think what we are (materially).

We are (materially) what we eat.

Therefore, We think what we eat.

That explains those bad dreams at night after eating sauerkraut and pickle pizza — we think what we eat.
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yess and sometimes when i eat icecream it makes my brain think really cool stuff

Quote:
How about this standard: The Word of God. This standard is in a league all by itself. There are a few contenders as to what is the Word of God — the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Islamic Koran, the Hindu Vedas —,
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yeah...really few....

Quote:
The God of the Bible claims to be in a position to know all things, because He created all things, and He sustains their existence at all times. This makes the Bible a unique source for all authority

So how do we know if the Bible is indeed what it claims to be — the very Word of God to man, the authoritative source of all true knowledge? Here is the problem: There is no authority higher than God to authenticate His word. No man, nor any institution of men, nor of angels, could have the authority to authenticate God’s word. To do so would be to place their authority above God’s authority. They would need a higher than the highest authority to authenticate the highest authority, which would be a logical contradiction. Hence the word of the God of the Bible must be self-authenticating — which is exactly what the Bible says.
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oh man...i'm dizzy from all the circles that this thinking creates...

Quote:
What are the two immutable things which make it impossible for God to lie? God’s counsel — He cannot change His mind. God’s oath — He cannot change His word. Because God Himself cannot change, His counsel and His word cannot change

yeah...and if i can change my mind...which i do all the time , in this aspect i am superior to god....whohoo! and he can't....sucker.... sounds not so all-mighty to me....

Quote:
When someone redirects the "how do you know" question back on us, then we need a good redirector in our toolbox, like, "What would you accept as evidence?" followed up with, "Why?"

yes do that, because you can't give an answer, can't you...

Quote:
Most materials are written from an evidentialist point of view. I believe we must first stand upon the solid ground that the Bible is the Word of God, then argue from that position. By contrast, evidentialists first fight to prove that the Bible is the Word of God. They use evidence from all of the unreliable sources of truth which I mentioned earlier — such as evidence from our senses combined with the scientific method. They argue that man, by reason, can find out God — which essentially places the authority of man’s reason above the authority of God’s word. They begin at the wrong place. They use the wrong evidence as authority. Remember, the bottom line is, "How do you know for sure?" Scripture — the Word of God — is the highest possible authority. There is no authority higher than the Word of God which can be used to authenticate the Word of God. The only authority which we can use to prove Scripture is Scripture itself.


That is our opening for the argument that, indeed, we cannot know anything for sure unless the Bible is the Word of God. The alternatives are either 1) the Bible is true, or else 2) we cannot know truth, everything is actually nonsense — absurdity. The second alternative should ultimately drive us to set ourselves up as the only authorities — which is humanism. This raises the specter of Solipsism, which simply means that we fool ourselves into thinking that everything else is real, when in fact nothing is real. In other words, we are god, and all that we know is a lie. By contrast, the first alternative — that the Bible is true — should drive us humbly to our knees in worship of our Almighty Creator.

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last one seems to be a slippery slope combined with a false dichotomy... if you're a humanist than you will be a solipsist...adn teh alternative is the biblical god....

Quote:
. We must begin with the Book and end with the Book, because there is no authority for what we believe outside of the Book. Without the Book we have no faith to defend. How do we know? Because the Bible tells us so.

Some people think circular reasoning (also known as begging the question or petitio principii) is false. Not at all. All sound, true and valid reasoning is circular. That is, the conclusion must always be found somewhere within the premises, such that if we accept the premises then we must necessarily accept the conclusion

Now, some circular reasoning is false, not because it is circular, but because it only appears to be circular, while in fact it does not make a perfect circle. It is inconsistent somewhere. We call it the fallacy of "circular reasoning" because it goes round and round like the worldview merry-go-round. It tries to validate itself — which no false system can actually do. Somewhere in the system it has had to borrow from reality, and in doing so, it has created an inconsistency within itself. Then it creates what I call "artificial logic" which is a false worldview trying to be consistent with itself at the sacrifice of genuine logic. So it is actually the fallacy of "non-circular reasoning."
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NonHomogenized

:banghead:

It must take dedication and hard work, to become that stupid.

Spaz

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Words fail me...

Ennazus

I couldn't even bring myself to follow that link. Maybe I'll be able to, after I recover from the highlights! I guess I should have prepared myself for the worst when I saw "Christian Logic". (As if there IS such a thing!)


Suzanne

Silent Dave

If I were to bet money on it, I'd say that that website was written by atheists.


Dave

Jinto

I'll take that bet.

orpheus last chant

i really doubt that it's by an atheist....i found it on the christian forum, there was a thread about recommended sites....

it is scary....isn't it....

orpheus last chant

i went to the link page....it was huge and filled with christian sites.... anyways....

one link brought me to a site www.carm.org hmmm they have a hole section on atheism....although it's not perfect...their definition is pretty good. they advise christians not to call athesim a religion, and the short version is lack of belief in god(s) hmmm
i haven't dug into teh rest except one - is atheism viable....very convincing really although i could notice a few flaws... go there it's very interesting
http://www.carm.org/atheism.htm

orpheus last chant

they even say that an atheist can be a moral person!


amazing

Jinto

Yay!

CARM is one of the more mainstream apologetics sites out there, and Matthew Slick at least makes an attempt not to sound like an idiot, which is more than I can say for most apologists. That does not, however, make his arguments any more logical.