Samhain

There are many problems which need examination when trying to co-exist with theists in the world. Christians, as said before, seem to be the stem of the true problem, considering other theistic religions do not try to forcibly convert others by fear of hell or the JC god. I hate to generalize, but I do feel, as some of the others have posted, that the main problem that atheists or agnostics seem to have is a result of the Christian doctrine, and their "charge" to "educate" everyone on their holy jebus or whatever. It's extremely doubtful that this board would be around if not for Abrahamic religions. I see the major problem, as I said before, in the other thread, that these theists must learn to cope with other theists before taking the responsibility of coping with us. The large problem at this point does not seem to be atheist vs. theist, but more along the lines of christian or muslim vs. everyone else including, especially, each other.

Once said theists can learn to cope, in harmony, with each other, then the task of atheist & theist living in harmony should be tackled. This is not an easy task, as I said before, mainly due to the problem of ways of thinking. I think that all of us would agree that theism and atheism are based upon two, very different, ways of thinking. I hope that others will not become angered by this assumption, but atheism and theism seems to stem from two different areas of the human psychi. Atheism from a more logical and scientific outlook, and theism from a largely emotional outlook. While we may not be able to completely understand the other's point of view or rationalizations concerning their different "world view" we both should be able to understand each other to the point that we feel that either of us is equal in our views, but just different. No one should have to prove or disprove anything, and no one should be recruiting fresh new members. They both should be taken as equal views from different perspectives.

Also, I do not hold that I am practicing what I preach. I am definately a militant in my own ways, but it's hard for me to stay quiet when everyone else seems to be doing the talking for me (theists).

[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: Samhain ]</p>

sighhswolf

You are not alone here Samhain, it is extremely difficult to remain silent in the face of bigotry
and elitism.
We are not much different than those with whom we disagree, at times I am guilty of reactions based on disdain for the individuals convictions and it is taken as an indictment against the person. (which it is usually not)
But for the most part when christians display the same behavior it IS a disdain for the individual and therein lies the problem.
We as non-believers dont necessarily dislike the person, we just dont share their brainwashing.
Christians equate non-belief with Satanism and
evil, which is a personal attack on our character.
You are either one of them or you are evil and an
enemy.
Generalizations are not well received by any of us, and stereotyping is a mistake on all of our parts, but still my experience has taught me that
anyone who does not believe in the christian god is thought to be evil and not to be trusted.
Heck in many parts of the US you cannot testify in a court of law if you do not proclaim to be a christian, and take an oath on the bible.
It's true....whether we like it or not.
Wolf

Vorkosigan

Atheists can co-exist with theists. Many on this board are married to theists....and have good marriages too. The issue is: can theists live with us?

Vorkosigan

[ April 23, 2002: Message edited by: Vorkosigan ]</p>

case

Good question. I thank everyone for their contributions to this subject. I've been visiting the xian forums lately with this topic, with some similiar replies. I think one of the biggest problems that keeps coming up is the problem of witnessing. This is a very big part of many xians belief systems, and it seems to be a sore spot for many non-theists. I think there is a fine line between witnessing for the faith and pissing people off. And I'm certain that its a very grey line. A good friend of mine, an evangelical xian, puts it this way:

[i]"If we don't witness for the faith, then we are not being true Christians, and we are not obeying God's word. However, I really wouldn't want a band of rabid atheists bursting into my church on Sunday, throwing copies of 'Origin of Species' at everyone, screaming, 'THERE IS NO GOD!!!!!!!!'.

I reminded her that this is as likely to happen as the Second Coming, at which point the conversation abruptly ended. Seriously, who would waste a perfectly good copy of Darwin?

I haven't really had this problem with many theists other than xians. As pointed out, there isn't a big market for Hindi missionaries. But then, I live in America, so I can't comment intelligently on the rest of the world. I do get the feeling that I wouldn't want to be an atheist in somewhere like Iran.

It is ironic how we non-believers have to act like saints whenever an overzealous fundie gets it in their head to try and convert us. It's also the reason that I find it difficult to keep my calm, as impatient a person as I am. I just keep reminding myself that most xians aren't like this.
I hope.

[ April 24, 2002: Message edited by: case ]</p>

NOGO

I would like to send this discussion in a different direction.

There is no doubt in my mind that any two people can find common ground and live in harmony. The more fundamental problem is which group dominates and therefore imposes its view of "harmony" on the rest.

Currently I believe that the dominant group is agnostic/atheist/rationalist. The religious groups have accepted this because the obviously alternative is war among themselves and they have already seen where that leads.

I really do believe that this state of affairs is fragile and may be disrrupted by war or other big problem. In very big and complex problems theists will have their easy ready-made solutions and will want to impose it on others.

This is my fundamental problem with religious people. They are not content in believing they want to impose their view of the world on others. Take abortion as an example. As a believer noone will force you to have an abortion so in theory harmony is possible. But believers want to force everybody else to think as they do and be denied abortion.

Abortion is not just an issue in this discussion. It is the theist battle front line. Their ultimate aim is to impose everything else on society because only they live as God wants us to live. Abortion is one thing that will rally the troops on this on-going battle. Silencing atheists and agnostics is somewhere in the battle plan.

So can theists and atheists/agnostics live in harmony ?

If you believe that the age of reason cannot be reversed then I would say yes otherwise ...

Watchout !!!

[ April 23, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

emotional

Theists and Non-theists:

One shall stand, one shall fall.

Jihad against theism: combatting theism until there is no person alive that believes in God or worships him!

ManM

devnet,
That attitude spooks me.

emotional

No more mercy should you show towards them
than do theists show and their evil God.

Old Iranian proverb:
"If you see a blind man, kick him. Why be kinder than God?"

al-la'n 'ala llaah waman 'abadahu - Curse be upon God and whoever worships him!

sighhswolf

"Does he not tell Moses....put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate
throughout the camp and SLAY every man his brother
and every man his companion and every man his neighbor?"

"In war the truth is so precious, that it must always be surrounded, by a bodyguard of lies".
Winston Churchill
Are we at war with the superstitious?
Are we at war with the intolerance and elitism
of organized religion?
Are we at war with the perveyors of "blind faith"?
Good questions.
Wolf <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

emotional

I have no more obligation to show tolerance toward theistic religion than I have obligation to show tolerance towards cancer.

No negotiations with God. Just kill him!