Amos

Well let me explain.

From my perspective, all religion is man made for the purpose of self liberation. The so liberated members become the stronghold of the civilization and provide the wisdom for the tribe so it can to prosper in the now and in the future. They are what the Senate is supposed to be in [rational] Government.

My major premiss is that in science we extrapolate from omniscience (Plato held that we recollect data [from omniscience] to become the hypothesis of our inquiry). Omniscience exist within our own mind and the inspiration to do things is prompted by the idea we get when we are motivated to do something. As we do the things we are motivated to do (are serious contenders in the rout of discovery), we encounter all sorts of possibilities and options and these are perceived by our wholistic mind and retained there for possible future inspirations. They, however, are and remain liabilities until such time as we deal with them and tie them down in our own rational understanding of the whole in which they are retained, though ill perceived because they are not tied down as of yet. This whole is the pool of luminous that becomes the flood out of which the ark is built and whatever is not tied down will be the neglected images washed away in the flood.

So in the end the ark builder knows his own naos because the rest is all washed away and therefore he "knows who he really is."

The omniscience for the next generation just means that our children will benefit from our vices and virtues that are incarnate upon them (blood is thicker than water).

ax

Amos: I'm interested by your logic and understanding of the bible. 1.So there is NO literal god according to you? (and I'm not talking "because we refer to something, it exists, even just as a concept etc..) 2. Do you believe in the literal son of the god refered to in Q1 being the saviour of mankind? Please don't missunderstand me, I'm not beating on you, just trying to figure out what the hell you belive exactly. So basicaly, is god just a concept we rely on for security of the unknown? Or a supreme being that literaly exists and created us?
Note: I'm a hopeless speller so don't hold that against me.

Amos

1) This becomes difficult because there is a literal God or we could have no knowledge thereoff. The point here is that "the unknown element" we refer to as God exists within our own mind and all we need to do is come to an understanding of our own self wherein we are God. After this we can be God, or at least, we can be the continuity of God to the same extent we know our own self. This is where the mansions in heaven come in.

2) We are/were God in our own mind and within our own mind we are divided between the conscious and subconscious mind. These two minds is wherein we are divided between our humanity and our womanity respectively. The "I" that is divided between our humanity and our womanity is neuter in relation to our gender identity but is masculine in relation to the earth and water out of which we are formed. Side note: this masculine identity is needed to create the essence of existence prior to existence and is how the Intelligent Design is built within the species.

The "I" wherein we are divided can be reborn in us to become the savior of our spiritual identity as man-in-kind ("son of man" is the neuter above), to be emancipated in the particular as mankind after the species man later to be re-united with God the Universal in relation to the whole of our existence.

3) Yes, God is a concept we rely on until we know better and God is a surpreme being that literally exists and created us. The problem here is how we use the words to describe God and now I can return to "in his own image he created us" and afer this image we are formed in Gen. 2 as Lord God and will continue to be formed as Lord God simply because we are God.

luvluv

I wanna make sure I understand the question Mr. Payne. Are we asking about the alleged contradictions between predestination and freedom or the alleged contradictions between predestination and divine justice?

One quick way to dispose of this, where my own beliefs are concerned, is to tell you that I don't believe in predestination. I believe God can know the future without directly causing the future. You should know that theologians break up causes into four categories. I'm a little sketchy on exactly how those break down, but only the first cause is directly attributible to God. The secondary, tertiary, and quanternary causes are, to varying degrees, more determined by us. Procreation, perhaps to your amazement, falls into secondary, not primary causes. You are not directly created by God, you were created by the free choice of your parents to conceive (or the free unintended consequence of your parent's decision to get their freak on ). Therefore, who you are is pre-known by God, but God did not necessarily create you to be who you are. Your attributes have a lot to do with the two people who shared genetic information to make you and the circumstances of your upbringing. God did create your soul but souls are subject to manipulation and are effected by their environments. God added in the equalizer of his grace and his power + free will to enable us to overcome whatever bad circumstances we came from and to become all we were intended to be. So, that's my slightly unorthodox answer to this particular question. It is you who decides who you are, even if you do not decide your attributes and environment. And God's grace does not function because you are a good person, it functions simply because you sincerly asked for it. It's so easy to get saved that it overcomes whatever the drawbacks are of your birth circumstances, should you choose to recieve it.

I don't know if I'm understanding the question completely but I hope this is a start.

ax

Amos: I understand the things you say, but guess what, bongo the invisible dwarf exists also, and although you cannot see him, he exists, because I can percieve his existance he is as real as you or me-this is kind of what I see your reasoning to be (although I can be a bit dum in the head sometimes and my thinking gets hindered )
LuvLuv: Do you think that if you are in hell, you deserve to be there? Jesus being the son of god and all, would surely know the nature of hell, and he seems to say that it involves fire and smoke and...worms? anyway,do you think that it is fair that people go there for simply not accepting God's dinner invitation? Can you see that God's offer is "love me or I'll hurt you".Sure you can focus on the nice heaven picture, but with the threat of hell looming over you, it seems right to choose the "save your ass" option. We're talking about a GOD here, and the options he's given you. I'm interested if the threat of hell helps you to love your god? Surely it is a factor that contibuted to your choice?

Amos

But you asked me what I believe and so I told you.

I never asked you to believe me and never hoped you would believe me.

ax

fair enough. I didn't mean to be preaching at you or anything, with truth being subjectivly relative and all.

Non-praying Mantis

Wait a minute, Luvluv!

I thought that I had explained how that was impossible, Luvluv! If you have forgotten about
<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000487" target="_blank">this thread</a>, I have given you another example of how the above is impossible. Have you read the ending of that thread?

I want to try and make you understand this! (Sorry, I am a teacher and it disappoints me that my "student" cannot get what I am driving at! )

Or perhaps you do not wish to understand!

NPM

luvluv

NPM, what happened was that you tried to explain how it was impossible, and I kept telling you how it was, and neither of us was listening to the other. I stopped participating in that thread because I didn't know how I could make it any clearer to you, and I thought you (and the others) were just being contrary.

ax, neither heaven nor hell played any role in my conversion nor in my everyday life as a Christian. I'd wager that's the case with most Christians, at least most that I've met. Very few seem pre-occupied with either heaven or hell. That's a big misconception about Christianity.