Autonemesis

But is it something you can pretend is so? Who is Joe Six-pack anyway? Does he even watch the news? How do you know these things?

How do you know this? Ryan says he speaks for occultism and defends his views all the time, and yet he has a different idea of how the "man on the street" perceives him. If you have experience that shows otherwise, please share it. But I am not buying the handwaving nor your attempt to blame your discomfort with Satanists on somebody else.

ashibaka

Then we could invite the Deists and uber-conceding apologetics...

Anunnaki

I didn`t say anything about being nice and compliant. What I said was that it doesn`t seem like a smart idea to bring up the supernatural being they are most afraid of.
Would`nt it be best to promote ourselves without ANY ties at all to what will surely be seen as an allegiance to a supernatural being? People are confused enough about what atheism is and isn`t,why confuse them even more? Or even worse,why reinforce the ideas of those like David Mathews who will certainly eat this up?

You and I may know that Satanists nor atheists believe Satan is real,but I think you`re forgetting the type of people we are up against. Take a peek at David Mathew`s site to see what he and his ilk has to say about Satan and atheists:

I somewhat agree with you here,but dragging a confusing reference to their supernatural monster under the bed can`t possibly help the way these people see us. All it`s gonna do IMO is make them cover their eyes and ears and retreat further into their religious anti-atheist comas.

Good luck to everyone who attends the march. I can`t go because it`s on the same day I get back from Amsterdam.
I sure hope that I don`t come home to find this country in utter bedlam due to this thing,but I`m not very optimistic.

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Anunnaki ]</p>

Bible Humper

No, I don't pretend it is so. What does this have to do with what the average Joe thinks when he hears the word "SATANist", Kind Bud?

You've got to be kidding me.

Alright, there is a goth hangout in Toronto called "The Vampire sex club" that is called "Satanic" every time someone mentions the damn place. I assure you that they don't mean LeVay Satanism, they are talking about black masses, upside down crosses, etc.
Do I win anything?

ROFL. Yeah I know, it's all projection, right? We all know that "the man on the street" realises what Satanism really is, and that it is just my own discomfort causing cognitive dissonance that leads me to believe that most people associate the word "SATANism" with Satan.

What a terrible way to go about trying to gain acceptance for your philosophy!

BTW, telling us that our objections are all just "projections" of some sort of "discomfort" is handwaving of the worst sort.

Autonemesis

If the quote you provided from DM's site is representative, they already have atheists confused with Satan worshippers. Not believing in God IS worshipping Satan. For the most reactionary, the black-garbed, mascara-eyelashed, chain-bedecked, mohawk-topped Hell Raiser is who we are right now in their minds. It might be that some places only see a quick shot of some Satanist-identified individuals and that's all they see of the event on TV. One can hope that there will be some opportunities for some wide angle shots of thousands of people, even if they don't show it on TV in some places (at first).

Autonemesis

I am disputing the contention that your anecdote about the Vampire club, or a pile of anecdotes is illustrative of anything represented by the insulting shorthand "Joe Six-pack" to refer to the not-atheist majority of society, in other words everyone else but YOU and people LIKE YOU. Does this behavior remind you of anyone who is perhaps a member of a religion you may have acquaintance with?

The only way you can worry about being stained by a broad brush of prejudice directed at atheists on account of Satanists is to swipe an even larger brush of bigotry at the general population! I swear, some people's children...

There will be some people who see the event and focus on Satanists or whatever feeds their agenda, and there will also be some people who will look at the TV and see a bunch of people who seem to be just like them, but who are not afraid to be seen in public with a bunch of self-declared godless people, of all kinds. The first group have already decided what their ideas will be. It's the second group the march can reach out to.

Everybody else will be paying attention to something more important to their world. As far as outreach to that group (probably the largest) is concerned, it doesn't matter who shows up.

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Kind Bud ]</p>

Bible Humper

You are a bold faced liar if you are going to sit there and tell me that the "not-atheist majority of society" doesn't associate "Satanism" with Satan.
You talk as if "LaVey" is a household word and his philosophy is something that everyone has heard of. The word "Satanism" is associated with black masses, devil worship, upside down crosses, etc for the vast majority of people.

When most people hear the word "Satanist", they think of the pimply little gimp from high school who was way into metal/goth and pretending to be "darkness incarnate" while he fantasised about having kewl powerz. In fundyland they think of a real live sorcerer who sacrifices kids and casts curses.

Take a look at the website linked to the first post of this thread and you will see all sorts of pentagrams, a demon riding a bear, etc. THE SATANISTS THEMSELVES ARE REINFORCING THE MISCONCEPTION. What the fuck is all that imagery about if Satanism has nothing to do with Satan?

If Satanists want to get their jollies by being "shocking", they can go ahead and be shocking without us getting painted with their brush.


Spare me, I'm getting all weepy.

The general population has not even heard of LeVey, much less his philosophy, so they are going to hear "Satanist" and think "devil worshipper". Look at that Satanism site, they aren't even interested in general acceptance, nor with dispelling the misconceptions. In fact, they seem to revel in the imagery of the christian devil, which is baffling since you have assured me that they have nothing to do with that, and that they "just want to be accepted".

These guys are going to show up at the parade dressed up like Maralyn Manson or Darth Vader and *poof* goes any credibility that the march may have had because the media is going to rather focus on colourful characters who might fascinate Joe Sixpack until commercial break than normal looking folks.

I wonder how the "we're here, we're queer" marches would have turned out if they had marched alongside some fringe gay pedophilia group, since they were fighting the misconception at the time that they all were pedophiles. I doubt that it would have been positive.

Actually, a better analogy would have been a gay fringe group that called themselves "pedophiles", but didn't actually abuse children. They just "like the name" and feel entitled to join in the marches.

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Splashing Colours Of Whimsy ]</p>

RyanS2

"Take a look at the website linked to the first post of this thread and you will see all sorts of pentagrams, a demon riding a bear, etc. THE SATANISTS THEMSELVES ARE REINFORCING THE MISCONCEPTION. What the fuck is all that imagery about if Satanism has nothing to do with Satan?"

The demons come from the "Lesser Key of King Solomon", a pseudopigraphy supposedly coming from the Great King of Israel. It's not particularly associated with Satanism, the Ordo Templi Orientis, Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, and several other groups use it. Crowley was of the opinion that the demons of the Lesser Key were psychological manifestations of inward repression which can be commanded by someone with proper knowledge and experience, but who's he to say?

The pentagram has been around since 2,500 BCE at the earliest known dating, and ostensibly can be traced further back than that. The baphomet, at least according to Kenneth Grant, comes from the words "Bapho Mithras", son of Mithra. The Jewish letters around it spell "LVTHN", or Leviathan, which is used metaphorically in the Bible, (and literally), as representing the Assyrian and Babylonian empires, which were superior to the Israelite army. Thus, my recognition of it is "LVTHN" is another way of saying "mighty". 93 is used by the Ordo Templi Orientis as the Gemetrical combination of two words which both equal 93, Agape and Thelema, or "Love" and "Law". "666" is an ancient pagan number representing the Sun, and I present two medallions from that era which verify that:

<a href="http://www.satan4u.8m.com/history/666.html" target="_blank">http://www.satan4u.8m.com/history/666.html</a>

The Sun represents Tiphereth in Kabbalah, (Qabalah), which is the source of manifestation and identified with Apollo. In Walter Pater's "Greek Studies" we learn that:

'Apollo, the "spiritual form" of sunbeams, easily becomes exclusively ethical -- the "spiritual form" of inward or intellectual light, in all its manifestations. He represents all those specially European ideas, of a resonable polity; of the sanity of soul and body.. his religion is a sort of embodied equity, its aim being the realization of fair reason and just consideration of the truth of things everywhere.'

I know, it's hideously diabolical, imagine what Christians would say if they found out all these diabolical mentionings of "Love", "Law", and "intellectual light". It could de-stabilize the entire atheistic community, I'm telling you.

"ROFL, do you think we were born yesterday?"

No, and I never imply that, but I do imply that you have no idea about occultism at large, or in specific, so please refrain from making comments promoting yourself as someone who knows these things. It's just as bad as hearing that joker who listed atheism as a part of Satan's plot, (and I assure you he would have formed that opinion irregardless of me or any Satanists at all), when he obviously doesn't know what he's talking about. All I ask, simply, if you don't know what you're talking about please don't. That reminds me of something:

"Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving us wordy evidence of the fact."

George Eliot

I use this piece of evidence to prove my point:

So far, you've stated that you are out to change the minds of the people of the World about atheism. Okay.... then you say you are scared about the people of the World's views of atheism. Okay.... So which is it? Do you prefer to change their minds, or be passive and allow them to harbor misconceptions? It's also funny that a group of people are judging me on events which have yet to transpire, based upon evidence which does not exist. I guarantee you that none of you could pick me out of a line-up of twenty people, much less a thousand. I walk, talk, and act just like anybody else does. You'll notice that out of the list of all the atheist websites on there, I'm the only one that doesn't have to go on long tirades against Christianity. Why is that? Because to me, atheism is a positive disbelief, so I feel no need to bash Christianity ad nauseam for it.

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: RyanS2 ]</p>

Anunnaki

Don`t forget about the killing and skinning of peoples pets. Theres something about some "Satanists" killing peoples pets out in the woods at least once a year around here.
Last years incident involved a man who found his lost dog hanging from a tree by it`s leash in Taunton Ma. The news reported that there were pentagrams and other occult stuff at the scene.

Then theres my girlfriends mother who is constantly telling my girlfriend that she`s "with the devil" and "in love with Satan and needs to go to church" because of her gothic clothes.

And how could I foget the notes left on my car while I lived in Italian Federal Hill (Prov RI) telling me "Get the fuck out you devil loving Satanist". I`m not even a Satanist for crying out loud! Me and my friends got all this abuse just for wearing black!

Anybody who doesn`t think that "Satan" or Satanist" provokes immediate fear and hate among most people is seriously kidding themselves.
Christians have been programmed since birth to LOVE God,Jesus,Saints and angels and HATE Satan and anything Pagan or occult.
This is why I`m against any "up with Satanists" type signs or banners at the march. I think you`d get a better reaction out of people if you had signs promoting rape,mass murder and child abuse.

I stand firm in my conviction that non-believers FIRST need to tear down the myths surrouding atheism before anyone can possibly try explaining to people what Satanists are all about.

Btw,has anyone heard from the Church of the Sub-genius yet? I`m sure these guys will show up and confuse everyone with their use of the word "church".

"Hey BillyBob,how come they hate God,but belong to a church. What the fucking hell is this shit?"

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Anunnaki ]</p>

RyanS2

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Where, in print or otherwise, do you see us endorsing showing up with "up with Satanist" signs? Anywhere at all? No? I already know what I'm there to do, and that's portray atheism as a positive, inspirational disbelief, which allows people to have a firm grasp of ethics, morals, and philosophy. Again, you are making judgements about things that haven't happened, so please stop. If I do something there which is horribly damaging to atheism at large, THEN you can harass me about it. To judge on events which haven't transpired seems to be claiming an omniscience I doubt you are capable of. (That's just my rational disbelief in ESP, I could be wrong.)

To another person who made a remark that I wasn't mentioned exclusively, they made fun of my org and about my social movement, using strawman's and making statements about things on the website which was not there. Again, you expect me not to get upset. Please, the webpage is loaded with writing, if you're going to try and condemn me on something, I kindly ask that you stick to what's on there without the need for making it up. That's just tacky to me.