Freethought & Rationalism Archive

WinAce · 04-21-2003, 04:47 PM

Take a gander at this hilarious car-wreck of a topic.

Me:

Quote:

Hypotheses proposed by creationists to account for this are inadequate: one entails independent insertion by the same virus affecting different species...The fact that species that don't even share the same environment, much less diseases (like cows and whales) share unique ERVs falsifies it completely.

<snip>

Another attempted explanation is that the ERVs found in our genome are actually designed elements originally placed there. Needless to say, this hypothesis is as ludicrous as assertions that dinosaur bones don't actually come from dinosaurs but were intentionally placed there. .

<snip>

A customary red herring involved in any discussion of molecular evidence for evolution is cries of "but they have a FUNCTION!". While that may well be true, function (or lack of it) is generally not the criterion by which things are considered evidence for evolution.

TheFiveSolas:

Quote:

This is old news. Ashby Camp dealt with this issue two years ago.

See the following link (specifically Predictions 19-21).
http://www.trueorigin.org/theobald1e.asp [a link containing alternative hypotheses of independent insertion, , 'ERVs may be designed elements' and "but they have a function!"]

I'm just curious - do creationists even bother to read your post and absorb the info therein before responding to it?

RufusAtticus · 04-21-2003, 11:42 PM

I went throught it already with Socrates, who refused to answer the following question.

Shared endogenous retroviruses and shared pseudogenes are the product of _____________?
Shared Ancestry

Shared Design Flaws

Previous TW thread

lpetrich · 04-22-2003, 01:20 PM

This thread about embedded retroviruses brought to mind some interesting recent research, which I mentioned in More Evidence of African-Beast Taxon. Essentially, there are some short interspersed elements (SINE's) that are present only in Afrotheria, a taxon pointed to by some recent molecular evidence. And there is a subset of these that is only present in Paenungulata (elephants, sea cows, and hyraxes), a group first proposed some decades back.

Likewise, there are some other SINE's that are only present in artiodactyls and cetaceans, indicating a relationship that is consistent with other molecular evidence ("Cetartiodactyla").

Albion · 04-22-2003, 08:45 PM

Wonder if we could get Lucaspa to wander over to TheologyWeb and hand out his inimitable brand of evolution posts to them. I don't think the CF creationists are enough of a challenge for such an intrepid crusader.

judge · 04-23-2003, 04:04 AM

Rufus Atticus:
Shared endogenous retroviruses and shared pseudogenes are the product of _____________?

Shared Ancestry

Shared Design Flaws

Judge:
Niether of the above.
3.Shared design. Why dop they have to be the result of a flaw. Can you explain. Thank You.

pangloss · 04-23-2003, 05:45 AM

Are you the same "judge" that posts but rarely responds on the EvC forum?

That is most annoying...

RufusAtticus · 04-23-2003, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by judge
Why dop they have to be the result of a flaw. Can you explain. Thank You.

Well pseudogenes are broken versions of actual genes. Humans get scurvy, because we lack a functioning copy of a key gene in the biosynthetic pathway for the manufacture of Vitamin-C. We don't actually lack the gene, our copy is just broken. (It is not able to produce a functioning protein.) The copies of Chimps and Gorillas are also broken, and in the same manner. The same is true for the gene that produces urate oxidase. An engineering example would be designing a bridge without roadway. It's there; we can tell it is a bridge; we can also tell that it is useless.

Endogenous Retroviruses are viruses that have intergrated themselves into a host's genome. They don't provide anything to the organism and are clearly parasitic. An engineering example would be designing a car with a rust spot in the middle of the hood.

Does this answer your question on how we know they are flaws?

lpetrich · 04-23-2003, 09:40 AM

Also, SINE's and LINE's -- short and long interspersed elements. These are sometimes present in great abundance, and they have no apparent function; our genome contains about 500,000 copies of a 270-bp SINE called Alu.

judge · 04-23-2003, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RufusAtticus
Well pseudogenes are broken versions of actual genes. Humans get scurvy, because we lack a functioning copy of a key gene in the biosynthetic pathway for the manufacture of Vitamin-C. We don't actually lack the gene, our copy is just broken. (It is not able to produce a functioning protein.) The copies of Chimps and Gorillas are also broken, and in the same manner. The same is true for the gene that produces urate oxidase. An engineering example would be designing a bridge without roadway. It's there; we can tell it is a bridge; we can also tell that it is useless.

Endogenous Retroviruses are viruses that have intergrated themselves into a host's genome. They don't provide anything to the organism and are clearly parasitic. An engineering example would be designing a car with a rust spot in the middle of the hood.

Does this answer your question on how we know they are flaws?

Thanks Rufus.
It seems genes are deliberately designed to be able to become broken. This seems fairly in line with what I know of Christian theology. Our earthly bodies are meant to "go wrong". They are corrupt, we are destined for the grave.
They are meant to give us trouble. The letter of James says we are "a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes".

Beyond the grave is the opportunity to be clothed with an eternal body not subject to corruption.

Viruses are clearly designed as well. Our existence on earth is not meant to be "edenic".
That our genomes are similar in some respects to those of apes and can both suffer from the same viruses niether proves nor disproves common descent.
If we both have evidence of the same virus all it means is we both were exposed to it.
Humans and animals (from entirely separate populations) can be exposed to the same viruses even today (whist entirely separate)

What do you think?

Happy Wonderer · 04-23-2003, 06:00 PM

ROTFLAMO, Judge.

Thanks, I needed that!

hw

04-23-2003, 04:04 AM	#5
judge Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bli Bli Posts: 3,135	Option three Rufus Atticus: Shared endogenous retroviruses and shared pseudogenes are the product of _____________? Shared Ancestry Shared Design Flaws Judge: Niether of the above. 3.Shared design. Why dop they have to be the result of a flaw. Can you explain. Thank You.

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04-21-2003, 11:42 PM	#2
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	I went throught it already with Socrates, who refused to answer the following question. Shared endogenous retroviruses and shared pseudogenes are the product of _____________? Shared Ancestry Shared Design Flaws Previous TW thread

04-22-2003, 01:20 PM	#3
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	This thread about embedded retroviruses brought to mind some interesting recent research, which I mentioned in More Evidence of African-Beast Taxon. Essentially, there are some short interspersed elements (SINE's) that are present only in Afrotheria, a taxon pointed to by some recent molecular evidence. And there is a subset of these that is only present in Paenungulata (elephants, sea cows, and hyraxes), a group first proposed some decades back. Likewise, there are some other SINE's that are only present in artiodactyls and cetaceans, indicating a relationship that is consistent with other molecular evidence ("Cetartiodactyla").

04-22-2003, 08:45 PM	#4
Albion Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: US east coast. And www.theroyalforums.com Posts: 2,829	Wonder if we could get Lucaspa to wander over to TheologyWeb and hand out his inimitable brand of evolution posts to them. I don't think the CF creationists are enough of a challenge for such an intrepid crusader.

04-23-2003, 05:45 AM	#6
pangloss Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,302	Are you the same "judge" that posts but rarely responds on the EvC forum? That is most annoying...

04-23-2003, 09:40 AM	#8
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Also, SINE's and LINE's -- short and long interspersed elements. These are sometimes present in great abundance, and they have no apparent function; our genome contains about 500,000 copies of a 270-bp SINE called Alu.

04-23-2003, 06:00 PM	#10
Happy Wonderer Veteran Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Washington, the least religious state Posts: 5,334	ROTFLAMO, Judge. Thanks, I needed that! hw

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