Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lpetrich · 07-24-2002, 05:56 PM

Richard Carrier, in his <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/jesuspuzzle.shtml" target="_blank">excellent commentary on Earl Doherty's Jesus-Christ-as-a-myth views</a>, makes this comment:

Quote:

Last, and certainly least: Doherty says "it is hard to see how Christianity as a vital force in society will be able to continue" (p. 295). I beg to differ: apart from the persistence of superstition and ignorance, Christians could well revive their creed with a new return to a Spiritual Christ, based solely on inspiration by the Holy Spirit and no longer dependent on any texts or hypotheses about history.

That certainly seems like an interesting doctrinal adaptation, although some might find it a bit "New Agey".

It will be interesting to see how the idea of JC-mythicism spreads, and what sort of reactions it gets. The responses from the more fundie sorts of people is predictable -- a lot of foaming at the mouth of the sort that Earl Doherty has already received. How others will react I'm reluctant to speculate about.

Tercel · 07-25-2002, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich:
It will be interesting to see how the idea of JC-mythicism spreads, and what sort of reactions it gets. The responses from the more fundie sorts of people is predictable -- a lot of foaming at the mouth of the sort that Earl Doherty has already received. How others will react I'm reluctant to speculate about.

Huh? As it spreads? You make it sound like it's something new.
JC-mythicism's been lurking in the background since the 18th Century or so, so I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for Christianity to fall over: It didn't happen then or in the many years since, so its unlikely to happen tommorow.

ManM · 07-25-2002, 04:20 AM

lpetrich,
JC-mythicism is theologically bankrupt. As St. Athanasius wrote, "The Word of God came in His own Person, because it was He alone, the Image of the Father Who could recreate man made after the Image." If Jesus was myth we lose the power of the resurrection. Without the resurrection, we have not been loosened from the bonds of death. What, then, remains of Christianity?

philechat · 07-25-2002, 04:47 AM

As Joseph Campbell would say, resurrection need not be a literal event, but a symbolic representation of an universal theme or wish. Why would it be bankrupt? Some gnostics actually interpreted the NT in this vein.

Vorkosigan · 07-25-2002, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ManM:
<strong>lpetrich,
JC-mythicism is theologically bankrupt. As St. Athanasius wrote, "The Word of God came in His own Person, because it was He alone, the Image of the Father Who could recreate man made after the Image." If Jesus was myth we lose the power of the resurrection. Without the resurrection, we have not been loosened from the bonds of death. What, then, remains of Christianity?</strong>

Whoa! Aren't you the guy that says there are no morals without god? Is that all Christianity is to you? A cheap ticket on the Eternal Life train?

In any case, theology, being fantasy writing with longer words and more boring plots, can certainly accomodate itself to that. The Churches have all dealt with the failure of the Bible as a description of the world since the rise of science, they can certainly deal with removal of the Savior from the realm of the real. The important thing, after all, is to keep those donations flowing and the institutional structures intact.

V

ManM · 07-25-2002, 05:22 AM

philechat,
It disconnects Christianity from the world and places it in the realm of our imagination. What need is there to prepare for the next life if the belief in resurrection is only a manifestation of universal desire? I just do not see how a symbolic understanding of Jesus can lead to any powerful theology.

ManM · 07-25-2002, 05:37 AM

Vorkosigan,
The Nicene Creed mentions the resurrection, yet says nothing about the bible being a scientific textbook. The resurrection of Jesus is one of the foundations of Christianity. If you remove the Savior from the realm of the real, how can you say He has saved anything?

philechat · 07-25-2002, 05:39 AM

Yes it could. Have you ever been moved by an artwork? A piece of fiction? Or poetry? Symbols, in my opinion, are more potent than literal understandings of a certain ideas. It is a grave Judeo-Christian error to historicize their myths.

Many sects of Hinduism, for example, does not require their gods to be literally existing. And Taoism, similarly, cares more about the symbolic representations of the dieties rather than their literal forms.

ManM · 07-25-2002, 05:59 AM

philechat,
What idea does a symbolic resurrection of Christ put forward? What idea does a literal resurrection of Christ put forward?

Vorkosigan · 07-25-2002, 06:25 AM

Vorkosigan,
The Nicene Creed mentions the resurrection, yet says nothing about the bible being a scientific textbook.

Point is, lots of other parts of the Bible are now known to be pure legend, but the doctrines soldier on. For example 1 John 5:7 is known to be an interpolation -- thus no Biblical support for the trinity, but that does not stop Christians in the slightest. The King James is no longer considered the best Bible version for reasons well known to both of us, but this has not shaken the faith of Dispensationalists one iota. I suspect if you proved that every verse in the Bible was false, Christianity would just soldier on, not even noticing.

[b] The resurrection of Jesus is one of the foundations of Christianity. If you remove the Savior from the realm of the real, how can you say He has saved anything?[/QB][/QUOTE]

It's theology, ManM. You can say whatever the theological school and church you're associated with will let you get away with. The Nicene Creed exists because obviously people were denying it, so there must have been people who regarded Jesus as a savior without regarding the legends as history. So the issue you refer to is really non-issue, or more precisely, one of applied creativity.

Isn't this precisely the issue that Bishop Spong is attempting to solve, if only the historicists would let him?

Vorkogisan

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07-25-2002, 04:20 AM	#3
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	lpetrich, JC-mythicism is theologically bankrupt. As St. Athanasius wrote, "The Word of God came in His own Person, because it was He alone, the Image of the Father Who could recreate man made after the Image." If Jesus was myth we lose the power of the resurrection. Without the resurrection, we have not been loosened from the bonds of death. What, then, remains of Christianity?

07-25-2002, 04:47 AM	#4
philechat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Mind of the Other Posts: 886	As Joseph Campbell would say, resurrection need not be a literal event, but a symbolic representation of an universal theme or wish. Why would it be bankrupt? Some gnostics actually interpreted the NT in this vein.

07-25-2002, 05:22 AM	#6
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	philechat, It disconnects Christianity from the world and places it in the realm of our imagination. What need is there to prepare for the next life if the belief in resurrection is only a manifestation of universal desire? I just do not see how a symbolic understanding of Jesus can lead to any powerful theology.

07-25-2002, 05:37 AM	#7
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	Vorkosigan, The Nicene Creed mentions the resurrection, yet says nothing about the bible being a scientific textbook. The resurrection of Jesus is one of the foundations of Christianity. If you remove the Savior from the realm of the real, how can you say He has saved anything?

07-25-2002, 05:39 AM	#8
philechat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Mind of the Other Posts: 886	Yes it could. Have you ever been moved by an artwork? A piece of fiction? Or poetry? Symbols, in my opinion, are more potent than literal understandings of a certain ideas. It is a grave Judeo-Christian error to historicize their myths. Many sects of Hinduism, for example, does not require their gods to be literally existing. And Taoism, similarly, cares more about the symbolic representations of the dieties rather than their literal forms.

07-25-2002, 05:59 AM	#9
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	philechat, What idea does a symbolic resurrection of Christ put forward? What idea does a literal resurrection of Christ put forward?

07-25-2002, 06:25 AM	#10
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Vorkosigan, The Nicene Creed mentions the resurrection, yet says nothing about the bible being a scientific textbook. Point is, lots of other parts of the Bible are now known to be pure legend, but the doctrines soldier on. For example 1 John 5:7 is known to be an interpolation -- thus no Biblical support for the trinity, but that does not stop Christians in the slightest. The King James is no longer considered the best Bible version for reasons well known to both of us, but this has not shaken the faith of Dispensationalists one iota. I suspect if you proved that every verse in the Bible was false, Christianity would just soldier on, not even noticing. [b] The resurrection of Jesus is one of the foundations of Christianity. If you remove the Savior from the realm of the real, how can you say He has saved anything?[/QB][/QUOTE] It's theology, ManM. You can say whatever the theological school and church you're associated with will let you get away with. The Nicene Creed exists because obviously people were denying it, so there must have been people who regarded Jesus as a savior without regarding the legends as history. So the issue you refer to is really non-issue, or more precisely, one of applied creativity. Isn't this precisely the issue that Bishop Spong is attempting to solve, if only the historicists would let him? Vorkogisan

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