I was just reading some of the articles at Freethought and wanted to pass this along. I am a Christian, a Catholic in fact. You know that we have also been persecuted, martyred and even reviled by other Christian groups. Remember the sign on the white house door when JFK took office? "No Irish Need Apply". This refered to his Catholicism.

The truth is that I have investigated other religions and non-religions and find value in most. Wiccans hold my admiration, as do Buddists and other groups. Although I do not understand atheists, how could I possibly deny them their right to their opinions?

I fully support your American right to freedom and always have. Some Christians feel a call to make conversions, and I also respect their attempts to make them. My sister and her family have also been spit upon and called names for preaching their Christian beliefs from the street. That is their right, too.

Christ teaches His followers to treat everyone with love and that it is not our place to decide who is right or wrong. How can we be such hypocrits as to persecute and still be true to our the values of our own God?

I feel the most important thing in life is to be true to one's values. I promise not to try and restrict your beliefs and rights to speak about them expect your readers to provide us the same courtesy. Thanks for listening.

IvanK

Thanks. Have you read Dominus Iesus lately?

Mageth

Thanks as well. If only more of us (theists and atheists alike) saw things the way you do. Why don't you register and stick around? We welcome anyone here, believer or non-believer, as eloquent and thoughtful as you.

Ron Garrett

Hi Katie:

Thanks for visiting. I hope you'll choose to stay and participate. Some thoughts. My family is Irish, though protestant, and has actually been here since 1623 in Jamestown, so we were not part of the potato plague invasion. Though a very small child, I well remember the barbershop discussions that Kennedy would be beholden to the Pope and take his orders from the Vatican. But having studied church history I must say, and I'm sure you must agree, that for most of the past 2000 years it has been the Roman Catholic church doing the persecuting, and not the other way about. the United States is one of the few countries where the RCC's power was limited from the beginning by separation of church and state. Obviously many of us here, those that hold all religions to be pernicious superstitions detrimental to human felicity and social good, would disagree, though we might generally be expected to defend their right to indulge in their delusions. A shame that the church did not share your liberality during the various inqusitions and witch burnings. I am glad that you are respectful of and open to beliefs that differ from your own. I am again pleased that you are not considering a career with the thought police. It is my sincere wish that you would avail yourself of library of the Secular Web and gain an understanding of what atheism, agnosticism, humanism and skepticism entail. In essence, we could all be said to place the value of humanity,rational thought, individual freedom and liberty far higher than any religion. We can all share the hope that such freedom is expanded, extended and made universal. I am respectful of commitment, but I admit I do not always respect the causes to which people commit. Some religionists are welcome in my home, among my closest friends, and we feel free to discuss our differeing points viewpoints openly and civilly. Such is hardly the case with the majority. Unfortunate, both their treatment, and their evangelizing. Christians have been killing their opponents for the better part of two millenia and have not found this incompatible with Yeshua's teachings, such as "I have not come to bring peace, but a sword." "Whoever is not with us is against us." The church in Spain believed it was loving to strangle those it had tortured into false confessions of heresy before burning their bodies in the fire. Jesus is the source of the notion of eternal hellfire and torment. Burning someone for eternity for sins they committed in the short span of a lifetime is a definition of "love" that I think any sane person must reject. I think the most important thing in life is to grant others the peace and dignity we ourselves desire. Christianity villifies and demonizes those who are not part of the cult, and insists they are children of hell. Through most of Christian history the faith has imposed itself by blood and sword and held the lives of unbelievers cheap. The Catholic Church's own writings make clear it continues to feel justified in the outrages committed during the inquisition, and did not willingly put away the torch and rack, but simply lost the secular power to impose its will on the bodies of those who came under its power. We may all hope that voices like your own will carry greatest weight in the Catholicism of the future. you're welcome. And I promise to resist with all my might any attempts to restrict my beliefs and rights. I do not receive my suffrage from the liberality of religionists, nor shall they or any others relieve me or you of it while I live.

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Ron Garrett ]

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Ron Garrett ]</p>

sidewinder

Katie: With all due respect, I have little sympathy for Christians, especially in this country, who claim to be persecuted for their beliefs. Christians are very free in this country to worship and preach. It's true that some will take offense and possibly lash out at you but it's few and far between. And even if they did lash out at you, it would most likely be with words and words cannot hurt (persecute?) you unless you interpret it in such a way. I think many Christians in this country want to feel persecuted just because someone wrote it in the Bible. You could save yourself a lot of persecution pain if you just kept your beliefs to yourself.

daemon

This post prompted me to search around quite a bit, specifically on Catholic heresies; specifically Americanism, a rather poorly known one. It is ironic that the attitudes we find admirable amongst Christians, and fairly common among the Catholics I've met, are outright heretical to the Catholic Church. Tolerance of other religions and the acceptance or even advocation of religious freedom stands in direct violation of the stance taken by Pope Leo XIII over a hundred years ago, and the Church does not change its stance (or, at least, admit to it). As such, how many such Catholics are out there that stand up against their own Church, unwittingly? How many realize that their own Church has renounced them for their love of humanity?

Bluebird

What about Nostra Aetate, the Vatican II document "Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions"?

I am very interested in other specific examples of this. Could you please provide me with more examples? Thank you very much.

Bluebird

-DM-

"The equal toleration of all religions ... is the same thing as atheism."
- Pope Leo XIII, Imortale Dei, 1885

-DM-

"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin."
- Cardinal Bellarmino (on Gallileo)

"One Galileo in two thousand years is enough." - Pope Pius XII

Because I have been enjoined, by this Holy Office, to abandon the false opinion that the Sun is the center and immovable, ...I abjure, curse, and detest the said errors and heresies...contrary to the said Holy Church."
- Galileo Galilei, (1564-1642)

"It is clear beloved Catholics that we cannot approve the opinions which some [Protestants, Jews, and other heretics] comprise under the head of Americanism."
- Pope Leo XIII "Great, Encyclical Letters" (p. 252)

"It is quite unlawful to demand, defend, or to grant unconditional freedom of thought, or speech, of writing or worship, as if these were so many rights given by nature to man."
- Pope Leo XIII, "Great Encyclical Letters" (p.16)

"It was once proposed that all religions persuasions should be
free and their worship publicly exercised. We Catholics have
rejected this article as contrary to Roman Catholic canon law."
- Pope Pius VII, 1808

"Public services should be 100% Roman Catholic. Care must be taken that no suspicion is raised when Roman Catholics are secretly given more government jobs than Protestants, Jews, and other heretics."
- Australian Archbishop Gilroy, 1940

Bluebird

"The Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these religions [Hinduism and Buddhism]. She has a high regard for the manner of life and conduct, the precepts and doctrines which, although differing in many ways from her own teaching, nevertheless often reflects a ray of that truth which enlightens all men."

"The Church, therefore, urges her sons to enter with prudence and charity into discussion and collaboration with members of other religions. Let Christians, while witnessing to their own faith and way of life, acknowledge, preserve and encourage the spiritual and moral truths found among non-Christians, also their social life and culture."

"Therefore, the Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against people or any harassment of them on the basis of their race, color, condition in life or religion."

"Although the Church altogether rejects atheism, she nevertheless sincerely proclaims that all men, those who believe as well as those who do not, should help to establish right order in the world where all live together. This certainly cannot be done without a dialogue that is sincere and prudent. The Church therefore deplores the discrimination between believers and unbelievers which some civil authorities unjustly practice in defiance of the fundamental rights of the human person."

"Well knowing how important are the problems raised by atheism, and urged by her love for all men, she considers that these motives [those which lead the atheistic mind to deny God] deserve an earnest and more thorough scrutiny."

Various Vatican II Conciliar and Post Conciliar Documents (mid-1960's)


I guess I mean current examples of situations where "Catholics ... out there ... stand up against their own Church, unwittingly?" I completely agree that Catholicism today stands in sharp contrast to official Catholic teachings of 100 years ago. What I am curious about is, do Catholics today stand in sharp contrast to current official Catholic teachings, as it appears to me was claimed in previous messages?