Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jayhawker Soule · 02-03-2002, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Freeman is represented by the American Civil Liberties Union, which supported the original federal RFRA. The organization has split over whether these laws protect legitimate freedoms, or constitute a violation of state-church separation.

Freeman told the Miami Herald, "I don't show my face to strangers or unrelated males."

It seems that this, and the ACLU's role, bears watching. See ...

<a href="http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/islam17.htm" target="_blank">Source Website</a>

Born Free · 02-03-2002, 01:14 PM

Oh for fucks sake this is lunacy, if she wins it's a sad sad day.

Vorkosigan · 02-03-2002, 02:48 PM

In my sincere religious belief, only my naked ass may be shown on ID photos.

Michael

Toto · 02-03-2002, 03:30 PM

Since her religion forbids her from driving, why does she need a driver's license? Or is that too logical?

Although I have to be sympathetic to a female evangelical Christian minister who converts to Islam. People like that just add so much - uh - diversity to life.

On the basic issue of RFRA and its clones, the ACLU has the same position as Americans United for Separation of Church and State, which is that minority religious practices should be defended from the bureaucratic state. (The ACLU and AU dropped their support of RFRA restoration when Evangelical Christians started to claim privileges under it.) It definitely bears watching.

Here are some other threads that have touched on RFRA and RLUIPA:

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000052" target="_blank">Jesus and building permits</a>

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000033" target="_blank">Religious Land Use and the Constitution</a>

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000034" target="_blank">What keeps Native American Use of Eagle Feathers Constitutional?</a>

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000413&p=" target="_blank">Islam, beards, and the RUILPA</a>

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]

freemonkey · 02-03-2002, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:
Since her religion forbids her from driving, why does she need a driver's license? Or is that too logical?

Not too logical.... I was wondering the same thing myself. I was also wondering if the facial covering she wears hinders her peripheral vision in any way.

Toto · 02-03-2002, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by freemonkey:

. . .I was also wondering if the facial covering she wears hinders her peripheral vision in any way.

I tried looking for some niqab on the web. The basic headcoving is wrapped pretty tightly around the head, with an opening for the eyes that allows for peripheral vision. (There are on-line aids for women who want to know how to wear the niqab over their glasses.)

The really devout put a silk veil on top of the niqab so strange men cannot even see their eyes. I would hope anyone dressed like that would not be operating heavy equipment.

I think it must take some special psychological make up for a woman from the west to not only convert to Islam, but also adopt the most bizarre and extreme customs, which most Muslims don't think are required by the Qu'ran.

On the other hand, she compares favorably to John Walker Lindh.

Toto · 02-03-2002, 09:00 PM

Heres another resource to look out for on RUILPA:

<a href="http://www.becketfund.org/" target="_blank">The Becket Fund for Religious Liberty</a> is a public interest-type law firm which is bringing most of the RUILPA suits. They seem to represent churches and individuals who are trying to get more public support and funding.

The Becket Fund also maintains the website <a href="http://www.rluipa.com" target="_blank">www.rluipa.com</a> which contains a good summary of their activities.

The Becket Fund is sometimes on the same side of issues as the ACLU and AU, sometimes in opposition. AU is fighting the nomination of Becekt Fund Board Member Michael McConnell to the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. (See <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/30/politics/30JUDG.html" target="_blank">this article</a> referenced on the Becket Fund website:

Quote:

Mr. McConnell is regarded as an especially wide-ranging and challenging thinker. At 46, he has been an important architect of a shift in American law away from strict separation of church and state. The legal shift is a pillar of the Bush administration's effort to channel more government money to religious social service programs.

He is also a wide-ranging constitutional scholar whose influence has been growing rapidly in recent years because of voluminous academic writings and cases he has argued in the Supreme Court.

Some of Mr. McConnell's views infuriate liberals. He has written favorably, for example, about interpreting the Constitution through an analysis of the drafters' "original intent," an approach critics say is often used to roll back modern rulings on subjects like civil rights.

He has said that Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court's 1973 decision establishing a woman's right to an abortion, was wrongly decided and in law school classes he has used Life magazine photographs of fetuses to set off student discussions of whether abortion constitutes the taking of human life.

An assistant scoutmaster himself, Mr. McConnell advised the Boy Scouts in their legal battle to exclude gay leaders. He also supported the Supreme Court nomination of Robert H. Bork

Hastur · 02-04-2002, 02:28 PM

Hmm. Should'nt someone explain to her that driving isn't a right? And furthermore, if we're going to allow you to operate a two-ton chunk of metal on the roadways, we're going to make damn-sure we know who you are and what you look like in case you cream some pedestrian.

Those are the rules. Don't wanna play by 'em? Fine. You don't get to drive.

Jewish males are officially "Men" after their Bar-Mitzvah at 13, right? So is the ACLU going to argue that they should be able to vote, drive and buy booze?

hezekiah jones · 02-04-2002, 02:37 PM

I know you're being semi-facetious, but age has never been considered a "suspect class." Ageism is rampant, entrenched, widespread, and often a damn good thing too, as far as I'm concerned.

02-04-2002, 04:33 PM

Ok, so she says to hell with the drivers license, and merely wants to get an official state ID, as is virtually required by our bureaucratic society.

She believes she has a right to do this with veil in place: now, what is the legal objection, and does the first amendment protect her or not?? best thoughts, everyone?

02-03-2002, 03:30 PM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Since her religion forbids her from driving, why does she need a driver's license? Or is that too logical? Although I have to be sympathetic to a female evangelical Christian minister who converts to Islam. People like that just add so much - uh - diversity to life. On the basic issue of RFRA and its clones, the ACLU has the same position as Americans United for Separation of Church and State, which is that minority religious practices should be defended from the bureaucratic state. (The ACLU and AU dropped their support of RFRA restoration when Evangelical Christians started to claim privileges under it.) It definitely bears watching. Here are some other threads that have touched on RFRA and RLUIPA: <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000052" target="_blank">Jesus and building permits</a> <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000033" target="_blank">Religious Land Use and the Constitution</a> <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000034" target="_blank">What keeps Native American Use of Eagle Feathers Constitutional?</a> <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000413&p=" target="_blank">Islam, beards, and the RUILPA</a> [ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-03-2002, 01:14 PM	#2
Born Free Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Scotland Posts: 4,177	Oh for fucks sake this is lunacy, if she wins it's a sad sad day.

02-03-2002, 02:48 PM	#3
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	In my sincere religious belief, only my naked ass may be shown on ID photos. Michael

02-04-2002, 02:28 PM	#8
Hastur Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Carcosa Posts: 238	Hmm. Should'nt someone explain to her that driving isn't a right? And furthermore, if we're going to allow you to operate a two-ton chunk of metal on the roadways, we're going to make damn-sure we know who you are and what you look like in case you cream some pedestrian. Those are the rules. Don't wanna play by 'em? Fine. You don't get to drive. Jewish males are officially "Men" after their Bar-Mitzvah at 13, right? So is the ACLU going to argue that they should be able to vote, drive and buy booze?

02-04-2002, 02:37 PM	#9
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	I know you're being semi-facetious, but age has never been considered a "suspect class." Ageism is rampant, entrenched, widespread, and often a damn good thing too, as far as I'm concerned.

02-04-2002, 04:33 PM	#10
Jerry Smith Guest Posts: n/a	Ok, so she says to hell with the drivers license, and merely wants to get an official state ID, as is virtually required by our bureaucratic society. She believes she has a right to do this with veil in place: now, what is the legal objection, and does the first amendment protect her or not?? best thoughts, everyone?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.