Sheep in the big city

hey fellow atheists (and reasonable theists),
I am really surprised that the evolution/creation thread is one of the biggest on the discussion forum. For me that is just such an absolut non-topic.

There is just no point in discussing evolution over creation. Evolution is just one of those beautiful explanations that while you are learning about it as a child you already feel like you've always known it because it's just so fucking obvious. For heavens sake you can even watch it happen for bacteria on an agar plate.

How can someone think God created dachshunds and chihuahuas and that that they roamed the earth together with the dinosaurs 5000 years ago? Grrrr, this just hurts the brain .. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

I think anyone who has thought about the subject enough to post here and still claims 'evidence' for creationism and call evolution just a theory is beyond help.
I do not mind discussing with theists who show some sign of thought and try to consider opposing arguments. But people who fervently advocate creationism - it's just not worth it and so extremely annoying and frustrating.
That doesn't mean I think one should just give up to avoid the intellectual pain inflicted by incoherent creationist drivel. But when you want to put time and effort into helping people get out of their delusions isn't it better to focus on people who are at least willing to consider facts and logic?
Don't even know why I waste my time here.
A last question to the atheists out there - has anyone of you ever succeeded in convincing a creationist or at least just creating a doubtful look on its face?


PS: I am referring to new earth creationism here obviously, that denies the evolution going on during the last few billion years and right now.
While I personally also do not believe seeding of the initial life, or God steering evolution or God being behind the Big Bang those are of course things that are worth the thought and discussion.

[ September 29, 2002: Message edited by: Sheep in the big city ]</p>

Devilnaut

I would respectfully disagree. I think that discussions such as these are well worth the effort, although I'd agree that it is unusual to see someone so out of touch with modern theories as a creationist change his mind based on this sort of discussion. Sadly there are still many people out there who hang on to these sorts of beliefs, and I think it's extremely important to have public domains like this one for people who may not be creationists persay, but are wondering what these issues are really about. Often they'd probably lurk here but sometimes posts from such people pop up, and I'd like to think the people around here are helpful to them.

A lot of the power of religion lies in its mystery, and I think that religion would benefit greatly from a closet approach to dealing with any of the issues it creates. I think that it's wrong to assume that everyone has had a proper science education (and esp. a good explanation of evolution; i know i never got one), and sometimes all people need (even seemingly dogmatic fundamentalists) is knowledge and a poke in the right direction..

Bubba

For what it's worth I'm a thiest and this board and discussion forum gave me the courage to investigate my beliefs. I went from being an old earth Hugh Ross style creationist to a thiestic evolutionist and now do everything I can to defend the teaching of evolution.

Bubba

Bubba

Also, you could say the same thing the GeoTheo and a few other posters here.

Bubba

Doubting Didymus

First, the answer is yes, a decent proportion of creationists are intellectually honest enough to revise their beliefs in the face of evidence. The only time that I saw it happen was on this board, not so long ago when GeoTheo modified his position to theistic evolution as a result of primarily his own research. I should add that I have been here for but a few short months, and so I do expect this kind of thing to happen again.

I would secondly like to draw attention to the fair number of lurkers who chimed in during the vanderzyden threads to say that they had been nudged over to this side of the fence by the combined efforts of some of the posters in this forum.

If those few are a reliable indicator of the vanderzyden debates' general effect on lurkers and fence sitters, then I think that some small good has been done in the world.

Camaban

People ask why bother.

All education in this world is good (as long as it's used properly)

And the more educated this world is, the better.

Hastur

The way to enter into a debate is not to convince the creationist himself, but to show any lurkers just what evolution is all about. Your creationist opponent will either open their mind to check it out or batten down the hatches and run off to "Dr" Dino to whine about religious discrimination. Either way it's not something you can control.

It's too bad we don't have an indexed archive of some of the more 'classic' debates so the whole 9 yards doesn't have to be recapitulated each time.

Oolon Colluphid

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

Since I regard promulgating lies as evil, I will counter them whenever I find them. I bother because creationists are liars and/or the purveyors of lies. That's reason enough to beat 'em round the head with the two-bi-four of evidence, I’d have thought.

Oolon

pz

Of course it is absurd and stupid and inane and incredible that people believe that silly garbage.

The problem is...people do. Very vocal people, people who have political power. People who are actually taken seriously.

That's the painful thing about this situation: creationism is deeply, profoundly stupid, and we have to struggle against it. You'd think it would just collapse spontaneously with only a moment's reflection by people of good sense...but no.

Camaban

With the hardcore ones, think of it like a boxing ring.

Good sense is a 100 pound midget, fear of hellfire is the 600 pound superheavyweight.

Of course, some people are so blatant in their lies, that I have incredible difficulties in believing that they actually believe in a young earth, etc at all, but are in it for the money