Sassenach

I'm a newbie, so please forgive me if my questions have been asked before.

I've posed these questions to many Christians and the answer is always something along the lines of "it's part of God's plan" or "we can't understand the way's of God. Perhaps, I can get some different answers here.


Does God know everything?
If so, he must have known how everything would play out; the fall, the savior, goods victory over evil. What's the point of doing something if you know how everything happens? Why not just create a place full of worshipers if that is the end result?
If not, how can you be sure that he knows anything? How can you be sure he knows how it will end?

Is God all good? Did he create hell? Is hell good? Is torturing people for eternity good (regardless of whether it is humans fault for being sinful or not)? Is it good or just to condem ALL of humanity for the crimes of two?

If God truely wants me to hear and receive his message, why doesn't he present it to me in a way that is absolutely clear? Sure, the message would probably have to be tailored for each person, but that is surely in his powers. And please don't tell me the bible is clear if you study it. The hundreds of Christian denominations demonstrate that it is anything but clear. And the fact that there are still Jews demonstrate that there are some people that think Jesus was not the fullfillment of the prophesies. Why should I have to gamble my soul on whether I am interpreting the bible correctly?

Why am I responsible for being born? I didn't request it. I didn't agree to the rules of this game. I don't want to play a game that I can't understand.

I've got hundreds of more questions, but that's a good start.

BTW, I am an ex-Christian who has done much searching.

Muffinstuffer

All of these questions have been addressed either here or on other boards. I'm not being mean. Just pointing it out. If you do a search on it you can probably find it.

wildernesse

If you consider Ecclesiastes, there is nothing new under the sun--and humans cannot help but ask the same questions again and again.

Does God know how to make chicken pot pie? Does God need to know how to make chicken pot pie? The answer to both of these questions for me is no. I don't think that God is the repository of all knowledge.

Is God all-wise? I believe so; in other words, I think that God knows the best way for me to act in all situations, the best way for my "heart" to be tuned (so to speak)--and I believe that Christianity is the best way (especially for me) for me to learn how to tune my heart for the best aka to God's will.

Does God know what we are going to do? No, I don't think that he does. I think "he" can see every option, and knows the best action in situations, but I don't know if "he" knows which one we choose.

Well, it could be to watch things unfold. I reread books that I enjoy--and I like it. We all do lots of things that we know the outcome of, the point of doing those things is to get to the outcome. Not really the point of the question, though I guess--and based on my earlier answer has nothing to do with God.

Is a bevy of worshippers the end result?

I'm not sure (that's pesky faith in there), and I doubt anyone else is 100% either (either way) so I don't worry too much about it. Why does anyone need to know how it ends? (What is *it*? The end of the world or death of the individual?) We follow people all the time that have no greater knowledge of future events than we do, and hope for the best. What is the difference to us if God knows how it will end or not?

I think God is all-wise, and I'm coming to think that wisdom trumps plain goodness, besides without wisdom you can't discern what good is.

Hell--as with most things that happen after death, I can't tell you much about it. Is torturing good (for any amount of time and any living creature)? No.

I don't believe in Original Sin--therefore, I don't think that anyone is punished for Adam and Eve's sin.

What makes you think he's not?

So, the message would have to be tailored to the individual, but the diversity of religious beliefs seems to be proof against religious beliefs?

For your last question, it assumes more than I do, so I can't really answer it.

You're not responsible for being born. You are responsible for what you do with your life, and how you make decisions that affect yourself and society at large. Responsible to whom? Yourself and society. What are the rules? Live long and prosper, individually and as a group.

--tibac

Sassenach

Watch it unfold?! He wants to watch the Crusades and the Holocaust and every other atrocity unfold? When I reread a book, it's becasue it made me feel good or made me think about something in a new light. I do things over again because I know doing them will help someone. I avoid doing things that have caused hurt.

Yes, heaven does seem to be depicted as a big, long worshipfest.



"It" is God's triumph over "evil". How do you know Satan won't "win"?


Well, the message I am getting is that he is an irrational, vindictive, spoiled being having a tantrum.



When every Christian denomination says their way into heaven is the only way and those ways are all different and they are all based on the same book, yes that proves to me that the message isn't clear.


No, the rules are that I am supposedly born tarished (I know you wrote above that you don't believe in Original sin), that I have to figure out the right way to become untarnished or be tortured forever.

tibac, thank you for responding.

wildernesse

No, I didn't say that God did that. That's the reason I do things that I already know how they will end. Since I don't think that God does know what will happen in the future, I don't think that this is the scenario.

I know as much about heaven as I do about hell.


What difference would it make if I knew Satan would win in the end? I don't think that the world is constructed so that we are flowing towards an Armegeddon where good will at long last triumph over evil, anyway. I think that the only Armegeddons of any type are the day to day choosing of what is right over what is wrong.

I think that is interesting. How do you receive this message?

I was not aware that each Christian denom had its own way to heaven. Most of the denoms I know about, allow that other Christians will make it--somehow.

If everyone had their own personal message, why do you think that they would all align into a complimentary conglomerate--especially considering the diversity of human nature and culture?


I disagree.

You are welcome. I hope you enjoy IIDB.

--tibac

HelenM

Hi Melanie

I don't think I've got any answers that will satisfy you. The reason I'm responding is that I went to your website and I wanted to say I'm so sorry about your son Keith. And I'm sorry about your pastor's wife's insensitivity (I read that in one of your earlier posts), that she would say he is in hell because he wasn't baptized! :banghead:

I can't figure out which is worse; that the church teaches that or that the pastor's wife would say it to someone who just lost a baby

Anyway, maybe you'd think that what my church teaches is just as crazy/wrong. But I'm glad we don't teach that and I also think that my church leaders do their best to be sensitive and offer comfort to people in times of loss.

take care
Helen

BadBadBad

We've had a couple of conversations about hell. I'm still curious about your church and your personal beliefs on that. Do you and your church believe in salvation through faith alone? Do you both believe that all those not saved are damned to Hell? Do you believe in a literal Hell with eternal torture, torment, lake of fire, gnashing of teeth, and the whole bit?

How does your church deal with teaching the doctrine of Hell? Isn't Hell a basic tenant of christianity? Do they teach it to kids five years old and younger? The Baptists sure aren't squeemish about it. Why do christians and churches need to be so sensitive about Hell? I'm curious about this sensitivity and comfort thing. What kind of comfort does your church offer for not only the loss of a loved one but the loved one's eternal torture in Hell?

HelenM

Yes, my church teaches salvation through faith alone.

They do believe in hell as a place of eternal torment and where people go who reject Jesus - so they urge people to believe and not go there. They don't rub their hands in glee at the thought of people going to hell - after all, a lot of us have friends and relatives who aren't Christians - and they don't teach that watching people in hell will be the entertainment in heaven.

They don't teach that babies who die go to hell.

I don't think there is an emphasis on hell in what is taught to children - I think the emphasis is on Jesus. I'm not saying they don't teach it at all. Just that I don't think it's emphasized. For example - I can't ever remember my kids bringing home a Sunday School lesson about 'hell'. I can't remember them ever learning a verse that focuses on hell although they do learn John 3:16 which says that those who don't believe will perish.

When I talked about comfort - comfort means showing sensitivity and love to people. It doesn't mean telling them things you don't believe but it does mean being careful that you say is appropriately supportive given the circumstances.

Nontheists here sometimes seem to take personal offense at the beliefs of conservative Christians, which I don't understand. Someone else's belief is simply a belief is a belief, not an 'attack' on others. It seems to me that a calm "I disagree with you" or a civil attempt to discuss whether there is a valid basis for the belief makes more sense than getting angry.

One thing I'm more and more sure about is that it's no fun being with people who just want to argue or who easily take personal offense at the general beliefs of others.

Helen

BadBadBad

So, we're on the same page here. I've asked my 5 year old and 11 year old children about God and Hell as they've been taught by the Baptists. Regardless of the emphasis in how it's taught, hell is an emphasis in how it's received based upon my personal experience. That's just offensive to in my personal case.

Of course that's common sense that the preacher's wife in this case didn't seem to have, but it just strikes me as hypocrisy. I'd just like to understand why christians have to be so sensitive about hell. It's not a bad thing is it? We're told that's where people choose to go. That's what they wanted. They deserve it. Why should any christian be offended by that? If you believe in the goodness of God and the wisdom of his solutions, why should any christian be offended by that? It just seems like doublespeak hypocrisy to me.

You seemed to understand it pretty well in defending Sassenach against this preacher lady. I think the mere fact that this woman believes an innocent infant is going to hell is offensive. You seem to have the same reaction I do. The fact that any christian believes I deserve to suffer in eternal torture for beliefs I have is, well, just offensive to me. Whether you come out and say it to my face or whether you are too sensitive for that is irrelevant.

The simple belief is not an attack, but you know as well as I do that christians go way farther than just believing quitely to themselves as illustrated quite well with the preacher lady. Hence this discussion board. Hence all the animosity from non-christians towards christians. Your belief set is offensive. Whether you personally proclaim it to the world with insensitivity is irrellevant. You are represented as a group by people that do.

Like I said. Your beliefs are offensive to non-christians. They are every bit as offensive as the preacher lady even though you're not in my face about it. You believe that if I don't fall in line with your beliefs I'm going to hell, and I will be tortured for it for eternity. That doesn't tend to endear me to you. If you don't think it's fun getting honest responses from atheists on an atheist discussion board, then don't post your offensive and hypocritical beliefs.

HelenM

Thanks for your response, brettc

Helen