Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Keith Russell · 12-31-2002, 04:20 PM

Greetings:

If 'God' is everything, how would you know?

I mean, you cannot separate out 'God' (if 'God' is everything) so see what 'God' is, apart from everything else.

And, if 'God' is everything, that violates the Law of Identity. To say that everything is 'God' is to say that a thing is not itself, it is itself plus 'God'.

I mean, I could say that 'God' is my left big toe, and then 'God' would exist, but my big toe would not be changed in any way.

So, why bother?

Keith.

hinduwoman · 12-31-2002, 05:48 PM

If God is everything, then the pagan modes of worship is correct: you can worship a rat or stone and be worshipping God. At any rate, these things exist.

Darth Dane · 01-17-2003, 09:27 AM

Ok, I have thought some more about this....

and have come up with the following:

We still follow the same idea.

1) I Am
2) The Concept of "God" is/exists
3) God is everything

Ok now we break it down in parts what this means.

1) I Am

Ok, first we have to decide if we indeed do exists or not. But saying this: "I am not" or "I am not real" will result in you not being able to say anything at all about the concept of God. I mean That which is not real or in existance, cannot say anything, right? So nothing at all will make sense unless we decide that we are real. So the option of "I Am Not" as number one cannot be used without losing meaning.

2) The concept of "God" is/exists.

Ok, we decided we were real, and now the world approaches us. Someone mentions the concept of God, and the concept now exists to you. This is evident by the world we live in. So this is true.

3) God is everything

As I said before, I don�t know what is the one true religion, so to be sure I don�t miss anyhting that God might be, I say taht God is everything. This way you can pick out anything from the world, including the cross, the statue of Buddha, a Tree, the wind, the elements, and no matter what you pick you will still be believing in the One God.

Ok. Next Level.

You are a believer in God(the highest authority you know) and any religion will do.

You go through the same system.

1) I Am
2) God is

Now you share the same quality or attribute or property as God does, namely the fact that you both are.

You are equal to God in this respect.
What else do you have that your God has?

Variation on a theme:

You are an atheist, no God or Godhead is present in your reality. The universe is just a fluke so to say and a coincidence, or something equivalent to this notion of a no-higher authority.

1) I Am
2) God is not real

Now something else happens. If God is not the highest authority then who is? I say it is yourself, you decide what is real or not, what is right and wrong, you are the supreme ruler/"God" of your own reality. In comparison to an ant, you will look allpowerfull, and you are. You can decide with no moral problems, that the Ant should die. The ant will never understand you, but you understand an ant much much more than the ant. You are also powerless in comparison to tornado. So you hold both the fact that you are allpowerfull and also that you are powerless.
You are the God of your reality. In comparison to those who believe in God, you have similar attributes that their God has. The fact that you are to begin with, also that you hold other attributes from various God figures, like Love and so on.

So however you want to dice it, you are equal in part or whole, to the concept of "God".

Make sense?

DD - Sensefull Spliff

Jobar · 01-17-2003, 10:16 AM

Darth Dane- no, I'm afraid it doesn't.

The thing is, you are trying to explain things our language is incapable of explaining.

I call myself an atheist/pantheist. Since the subject is obviously of interest to you, I'll link you to some of the many topics in which I expound on things unspeakable.

here
and here
andhere
and here
and particularly here.

Zen riddles are designed to force students of Zen to confront the fact that some things are indescribeable. You are, in the words of one such parable, like a mosquito attempting to bite an iron bull.

Darth Dane · 01-17-2003, 10:33 AM

Ah all true, however wherein lies the flaw of the logics of my thought experiment?

I realize that it cannot be described, but we can point towards that which is indescribeable, and that is what a lot have said. Jesus: "The kingdom of heaven is in your heart", Love is but a symbol of teh actual feeling in your body which is indescribeable by mere words.

All of it is symbols of something else...that which is indescribeable. Love?

From another post of yours:

"THOU art THAT! Look, if you absolutely insist that God has to be a supernatural and separate entity, you certainly will never accept my statement that "I am God"- but for me, 'God' is the totality of reality- the known and the unknown. And I am, simply by existing, a part of that totality."

So you seem to be agreeing with me???

DD - Love Spliff

Jobar · 01-17-2003, 03:00 PM

So you seem to be agreeing with me???

Once upon a time, there was a Zen student who quoted an old Buddhist poem to his teacher, which says:
The voices of torrents are from one great tongue,
the lions of the hills are the pure body of Buddha.
'Isn't that right?' he said to the teacher.
'It is,' said the teacher, 'but it's a pity to say so.'

Darth Dane · 01-17-2003, 03:13 PM

I am humbled by your words :banghead:

DD - Humble Spliff

Darth Dane · 04-28-2003, 08:21 AM

Once upon a time, there was a Zen student who quoted an old Buddhist poem to his teacher, which says:
The voices of torrents are from one great tongue,
the lions of the hills are the pure body of Buddha.
'Isn't that right?' he said to the teacher.
'It is,' said the teacher, 'but it's a pity to say so.'

I just noticed something, that I have missed before. The student asks teh teacher for confirmation, this seems to mean that the student have noy really realised that truth, but is only saying it because someone else said that that was true.

The pity, as I see it, comes when someone says this, without the realization. Maybe because, when you realise, you won't have to say it!

DD - Love Spliff

smugg · 04-28-2003, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by -DM-
"Is" is a linking verb. It has no meaning by itself.

It has no meaning whatsoever to say "God is."

In order for their to be meaning, you have to say something like "God is omnipotent."

In fact, there is an organization which advocates doing away with "is." Were we to do this, instead of "God is omnipotent," we would say simply, "God omnipotent."

You can see, then, that if we have a statement, "God is," and we do away with the "is" (which is useless without something to complete the statement), then we have simply, "God."

Thus the initial statement, "(1) God is," is meaningless as it is, and that statement renders moot that which follows that is based on it.

-Don-

Sorry to quibble, but "is" is actually a verb of being. It is the third person singular form of the word be. It can also link a subject with a predicate, but that is not its sole use.

Jobar · 04-29-2003, 07:39 PM

Tao Te Ching
by LAO TSU
Translation by Gia Fu Feng
and Jane English

Fourteen

Look, it cannot be seen--it is beyond form.
Listen, it cannot be heard--it is beyond sound.
Grasp, it cannot be held--it is intangible.
These three are indefinable;
Therefore they are joined in one.

From above it is not bright;
From below it is not dark:
An unbroken thread beyond description.
It returns to nothingness.
The form of the formless,
The image of the imageless,
It is called indefinable and beyond imagination.

Stand before it and there is no beginning.
Follow it and there is no end.
Stay with the ancient Tao,
Move with the present.

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12-31-2002, 04:20 PM	#21
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: If 'God' is everything, how would you know? I mean, you cannot separate out 'God' (if 'God' is everything) so see what 'God' is, apart from everything else. And, if 'God' is everything, that violates the Law of Identity. To say that everything is 'God' is to say that a thing is not itself, it is itself plus 'God'. I mean, I could say that 'God' is my left big toe, and then 'God' would exist, but my big toe would not be changed in any way. So, why bother? Keith.

12-31-2002, 05:48 PM	#22
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	If God is everything, then the pagan modes of worship is correct: you can worship a rat or stone and be worshipping God. At any rate, these things exist.

01-17-2003, 09:27 AM	#23
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	Ok, I have thought some more about this.... and have come up with the following: We still follow the same idea. 1) I Am 2) The Concept of "God" is/exists 3) God is everything Ok now we break it down in parts what this means. 1) I Am Ok, first we have to decide if we indeed do exists or not. But saying this: "I am not" or "I am not real" will result in you not being able to say anything at all about the concept of God. I mean That which is not real or in existance, cannot say anything, right? So nothing at all will make sense unless we decide that we are real. So the option of "I Am Not" as number one cannot be used without losing meaning. 2) The concept of "God" is/exists. Ok, we decided we were real, and now the world approaches us. Someone mentions the concept of God, and the concept now exists to you. This is evident by the world we live in. So this is true. 3) God is everything As I said before, I don�t know what is the one true religion, so to be sure I don�t miss anyhting that God might be, I say taht God is everything. This way you can pick out anything from the world, including the cross, the statue of Buddha, a Tree, the wind, the elements, and no matter what you pick you will still be believing in the One God. Ok. Next Level. You are a believer in God(the highest authority you know) and any religion will do. You go through the same system. 1) I Am 2) God is Now you share the same quality or attribute or property as God does, namely the fact that you both are. You are equal to God in this respect. What else do you have that your God has? Variation on a theme: You are an atheist, no God or Godhead is present in your reality. The universe is just a fluke so to say and a coincidence, or something equivalent to this notion of a no-higher authority. 1) I Am 2) God is not real Now something else happens. If God is not the highest authority then who is? I say it is yourself, you decide what is real or not, what is right and wrong, you are the supreme ruler/"God" of your own reality. In comparison to an ant, you will look allpowerfull, and you are. You can decide with no moral problems, that the Ant should die. The ant will never understand you, but you understand an ant much much more than the ant. You are also powerless in comparison to tornado. So you hold both the fact that you are allpowerfull and also that you are powerless. You are the God of your reality. In comparison to those who believe in God, you have similar attributes that their God has. The fact that you are to begin with, also that you hold other attributes from various God figures, like Love and so on. So however you want to dice it, you are equal in part or whole, to the concept of "God". Make sense? DD - Sensefull Spliff

01-17-2003, 10:16 AM	#24
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Darth Dane- no, I'm afraid it doesn't. The thing is, you are trying to explain things our language is incapable of explaining. I call myself an atheist/pantheist. Since the subject is obviously of interest to you, I'll link you to some of the many topics in which I expound on things unspeakable. here and here andhere and here and particularly here. Zen riddles are designed to force students of Zen to confront the fact that some things are indescribeable. You are, in the words of one such parable, like a mosquito attempting to bite an iron bull.

01-17-2003, 10:33 AM	#25
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	Ah all true, however wherein lies the flaw of the logics of my thought experiment? I realize that it cannot be described, but we can point towards that which is indescribeable, and that is what a lot have said. Jesus: "The kingdom of heaven is in your heart", Love is but a symbol of teh actual feeling in your body which is indescribeable by mere words. All of it is symbols of something else...that which is indescribeable. Love? From another post of yours: "THOU art THAT! Look, if you absolutely insist that God has to be a supernatural and separate entity, you certainly will never accept my statement that "I am God"- but for me, 'God' is the totality of reality- the known and the unknown. And I am, simply by existing, a part of that totality." So you seem to be agreeing with me??? DD - Love Spliff

01-17-2003, 03:00 PM	#26
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	So you seem to be agreeing with me??? Once upon a time, there was a Zen student who quoted an old Buddhist poem to his teacher, which says: The voices of torrents are from one great tongue, the lions of the hills are the pure body of Buddha. 'Isn't that right?' he said to the teacher. 'It is,' said the teacher, 'but it's a pity to say so.'

01-17-2003, 03:13 PM	#27
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	I am humbled by your words :banghead: DD - Humble Spliff

04-28-2003, 08:21 AM	#28
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	Once upon a time, there was a Zen student who quoted an old Buddhist poem to his teacher, which says: The voices of torrents are from one great tongue, the lions of the hills are the pure body of Buddha. 'Isn't that right?' he said to the teacher. 'It is,' said the teacher, 'but it's a pity to say so.' I just noticed something, that I have missed before. The student asks teh teacher for confirmation, this seems to mean that the student have noy really realised that truth, but is only saying it because someone else said that that was true. The pity, as I see it, comes when someone says this, without the realization. Maybe because, when you realise, you won't have to say it! DD - Love Spliff

04-29-2003, 07:39 PM	#30
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Tao Te Ching by LAO TSU Translation by Gia Fu Feng and Jane English Fourteen Look, it cannot be seen--it is beyond form. Listen, it cannot be heard--it is beyond sound. Grasp, it cannot be held--it is intangible. These three are indefinable; Therefore they are joined in one. From above it is not bright; From below it is not dark: An unbroken thread beyond description. It returns to nothingness. The form of the formless, The image of the imageless, It is called indefinable and beyond imagination. Stand before it and there is no beginning. Follow it and there is no end. Stay with the ancient Tao, Move with the present.

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